Difference between rungs two and three in the Ladder of Causation





.everyoneloves__top-leaderboard:empty,.everyoneloves__mid-leaderboard:empty{ margin-bottom:0;
}






up vote
3
down vote

favorite
3












In Judea Pearl's "Book of Why" he talks about what he calls the Ladder of Causation, which is essentially a hierarchy comprised of different levels of causal reasoning. The lowest is concerned with patterns of association in observed data (e.g., correlation, conditional probability, etc.), the next focuses on intervention (what happens if we deliberately change the data generating process in some prespecified way?), and the third is counterfactual (what would happen in another possible world if something had or had not happened)?



What I'm not understanding is how rungs two and three differ. If we ask a counterfactual question, are we not simply asking a question about intervening so as to negate some aspect of the observed world?










share|cite|improve this question
























  • Is this really on topic? Asking out of curiosity
    – Firebug
    4 hours ago






  • 1




    @Firebug is causality on topic? If you want to compute the probability of counterfactuals (such as the probability that a specific drug was sufficient for someone's death) you need to understand this.
    – Carlos Cinelli
    4 hours ago



















up vote
3
down vote

favorite
3












In Judea Pearl's "Book of Why" he talks about what he calls the Ladder of Causation, which is essentially a hierarchy comprised of different levels of causal reasoning. The lowest is concerned with patterns of association in observed data (e.g., correlation, conditional probability, etc.), the next focuses on intervention (what happens if we deliberately change the data generating process in some prespecified way?), and the third is counterfactual (what would happen in another possible world if something had or had not happened)?



What I'm not understanding is how rungs two and three differ. If we ask a counterfactual question, are we not simply asking a question about intervening so as to negate some aspect of the observed world?










share|cite|improve this question
























  • Is this really on topic? Asking out of curiosity
    – Firebug
    4 hours ago






  • 1




    @Firebug is causality on topic? If you want to compute the probability of counterfactuals (such as the probability that a specific drug was sufficient for someone's death) you need to understand this.
    – Carlos Cinelli
    4 hours ago















up vote
3
down vote

favorite
3









up vote
3
down vote

favorite
3






3





In Judea Pearl's "Book of Why" he talks about what he calls the Ladder of Causation, which is essentially a hierarchy comprised of different levels of causal reasoning. The lowest is concerned with patterns of association in observed data (e.g., correlation, conditional probability, etc.), the next focuses on intervention (what happens if we deliberately change the data generating process in some prespecified way?), and the third is counterfactual (what would happen in another possible world if something had or had not happened)?



What I'm not understanding is how rungs two and three differ. If we ask a counterfactual question, are we not simply asking a question about intervening so as to negate some aspect of the observed world?










share|cite|improve this question















In Judea Pearl's "Book of Why" he talks about what he calls the Ladder of Causation, which is essentially a hierarchy comprised of different levels of causal reasoning. The lowest is concerned with patterns of association in observed data (e.g., correlation, conditional probability, etc.), the next focuses on intervention (what happens if we deliberately change the data generating process in some prespecified way?), and the third is counterfactual (what would happen in another possible world if something had or had not happened)?



What I'm not understanding is how rungs two and three differ. If we ask a counterfactual question, are we not simply asking a question about intervening so as to negate some aspect of the observed world?







causality






share|cite|improve this question















share|cite|improve this question













share|cite|improve this question




share|cite|improve this question








edited 4 hours ago

























asked 5 hours ago









dsaxton

9,49011536




9,49011536












  • Is this really on topic? Asking out of curiosity
    – Firebug
    4 hours ago






  • 1




    @Firebug is causality on topic? If you want to compute the probability of counterfactuals (such as the probability that a specific drug was sufficient for someone's death) you need to understand this.
    – Carlos Cinelli
    4 hours ago




















  • Is this really on topic? Asking out of curiosity
    – Firebug
    4 hours ago






  • 1




    @Firebug is causality on topic? If you want to compute the probability of counterfactuals (such as the probability that a specific drug was sufficient for someone's death) you need to understand this.
    – Carlos Cinelli
    4 hours ago


















Is this really on topic? Asking out of curiosity
– Firebug
4 hours ago




Is this really on topic? Asking out of curiosity
– Firebug
4 hours ago




1




1




@Firebug is causality on topic? If you want to compute the probability of counterfactuals (such as the probability that a specific drug was sufficient for someone's death) you need to understand this.
– Carlos Cinelli
4 hours ago






@Firebug is causality on topic? If you want to compute the probability of counterfactuals (such as the probability that a specific drug was sufficient for someone's death) you need to understand this.
– Carlos Cinelli
4 hours ago












1 Answer
1






active

oldest

votes

















up vote
3
down vote



accepted










The main difference of interventions and counterfactuals is that with interventions you are asking what will happen on average if you perform an action, and in counterfactuals you are asking what would have happened had you taken a different course of action in a specific situation, given that you have information about what actually happened. Note that, since you already know what happened in the actual world, you need to update your information about the past in light of the evidence you have observed.



These two types of queries are mathematically distinct because they require different levels of information to be answered (counterfactuals need more information to be answered) and even more elaborate language to be articulated!.



With Rung 3 information you can answer Rung 2 questions, but not the other way around. More precisely, you cannot answer counterfactual questions with just interventional information. Examples where the clash of interventions and counterfactuals happens were already given here in CV, see this post and this post. However, for the sake of completeness, I will include an example here as well.



The example below can be found in Causality, section 1.4.4.



Consider that you have performed a randomized experiment where patients were randomly assigned (50% / 50%) to treatment ($x =1$) and control conditions ($x=0$), and in both treatment and control groups 50% recovered ($y=0$) and 50% died ($y=1$). That is $P(y|x) = 0.5~~~forall x,y$.



The result of the experiment tells you that the average causal effect of the intervention is zero. This is a rung 2 question, $P(Y = 1|do(X = 1)) - P(Y=1|do(X =0) = 0$.



But now let us ask the following question: what percentage of those patients who died under treatment would have recovered had they not taken the treatment? Mathematically, you want to compute $P(Y_{0} = 0|X =1, Y = 1)$.



This question cannot be answered just with the interventional data you have. The proof is simple: I can create two different causal models that will have the same interventional distributions, yet different counterfactual distributions. The two are provided below:



enter image description here



Here, $U$ amounts to unobserved factors that explain how the patient reacts to the treatment. You can think of factors that explain treatment heterogeneity, for instance. Note the marginal distribution $P(y, x)$ of both models agree.



Note that, in the first model, no one is affected by the treatment, thus the percentage of those patients who died under treatment that would have recovered had they not taken the treatment is zero.



However, in the second model, every patient is affected by the treatment, and we have a mixture of two populations in which the average causal effect turns out to be zero. In this example, the counterfactual quantity now goes to 100% --- in Model 2, all patients who died under treatment would have recovered had they not taken the treatment.



Thus, there's a clear distinction of rung 2 and rung 3. As the example shows, you can't answer counterfactual questions with just information and assumptions about interventions. This is made clear with the three steps for computing a counterfactual:





  1. Step 1 (abduction): update the probability of unobserved factors $P(u)$ in light of the observed evidence $P(u|e)$


  2. Step 2 (action): perform the action in the model (for instance $do(x))$.


  3. Step 3 (prediction): predict $Y$ in the modified model.


This will not be possible to compute without some functional information about the causal model, or without some information about latent variables.






share|cite|improve this answer























    Your Answer





    StackExchange.ifUsing("editor", function () {
    return StackExchange.using("mathjaxEditing", function () {
    StackExchange.MarkdownEditor.creationCallbacks.add(function (editor, postfix) {
    StackExchange.mathjaxEditing.prepareWmdForMathJax(editor, postfix, [["$", "$"], ["\\(","\\)"]]);
    });
    });
    }, "mathjax-editing");

    StackExchange.ready(function() {
    var channelOptions = {
    tags: "".split(" "),
    id: "65"
    };
    initTagRenderer("".split(" "), "".split(" "), channelOptions);

    StackExchange.using("externalEditor", function() {
    // Have to fire editor after snippets, if snippets enabled
    if (StackExchange.settings.snippets.snippetsEnabled) {
    StackExchange.using("snippets", function() {
    createEditor();
    });
    }
    else {
    createEditor();
    }
    });

    function createEditor() {
    StackExchange.prepareEditor({
    heartbeatType: 'answer',
    convertImagesToLinks: false,
    noModals: true,
    showLowRepImageUploadWarning: true,
    reputationToPostImages: null,
    bindNavPrevention: true,
    postfix: "",
    imageUploader: {
    brandingHtml: "Powered by u003ca class="icon-imgur-white" href="https://imgur.com/"u003eu003c/au003e",
    contentPolicyHtml: "User contributions licensed under u003ca href="https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-sa/3.0/"u003ecc by-sa 3.0 with attribution requiredu003c/au003e u003ca href="https://stackoverflow.com/legal/content-policy"u003e(content policy)u003c/au003e",
    allowUrls: true
    },
    onDemand: true,
    discardSelector: ".discard-answer"
    ,immediatelyShowMarkdownHelp:true
    });


    }
    });














    draft saved

    draft discarded


















    StackExchange.ready(
    function () {
    StackExchange.openid.initPostLogin('.new-post-login', 'https%3a%2f%2fstats.stackexchange.com%2fquestions%2f379799%2fdifference-between-rungs-two-and-three-in-the-ladder-of-causation%23new-answer', 'question_page');
    }
    );

    Post as a guest















    Required, but never shown

























    1 Answer
    1






    active

    oldest

    votes








    1 Answer
    1






    active

    oldest

    votes









    active

    oldest

    votes






    active

    oldest

    votes








    up vote
    3
    down vote



    accepted










    The main difference of interventions and counterfactuals is that with interventions you are asking what will happen on average if you perform an action, and in counterfactuals you are asking what would have happened had you taken a different course of action in a specific situation, given that you have information about what actually happened. Note that, since you already know what happened in the actual world, you need to update your information about the past in light of the evidence you have observed.



    These two types of queries are mathematically distinct because they require different levels of information to be answered (counterfactuals need more information to be answered) and even more elaborate language to be articulated!.



    With Rung 3 information you can answer Rung 2 questions, but not the other way around. More precisely, you cannot answer counterfactual questions with just interventional information. Examples where the clash of interventions and counterfactuals happens were already given here in CV, see this post and this post. However, for the sake of completeness, I will include an example here as well.



    The example below can be found in Causality, section 1.4.4.



    Consider that you have performed a randomized experiment where patients were randomly assigned (50% / 50%) to treatment ($x =1$) and control conditions ($x=0$), and in both treatment and control groups 50% recovered ($y=0$) and 50% died ($y=1$). That is $P(y|x) = 0.5~~~forall x,y$.



    The result of the experiment tells you that the average causal effect of the intervention is zero. This is a rung 2 question, $P(Y = 1|do(X = 1)) - P(Y=1|do(X =0) = 0$.



    But now let us ask the following question: what percentage of those patients who died under treatment would have recovered had they not taken the treatment? Mathematically, you want to compute $P(Y_{0} = 0|X =1, Y = 1)$.



    This question cannot be answered just with the interventional data you have. The proof is simple: I can create two different causal models that will have the same interventional distributions, yet different counterfactual distributions. The two are provided below:



    enter image description here



    Here, $U$ amounts to unobserved factors that explain how the patient reacts to the treatment. You can think of factors that explain treatment heterogeneity, for instance. Note the marginal distribution $P(y, x)$ of both models agree.



    Note that, in the first model, no one is affected by the treatment, thus the percentage of those patients who died under treatment that would have recovered had they not taken the treatment is zero.



    However, in the second model, every patient is affected by the treatment, and we have a mixture of two populations in which the average causal effect turns out to be zero. In this example, the counterfactual quantity now goes to 100% --- in Model 2, all patients who died under treatment would have recovered had they not taken the treatment.



    Thus, there's a clear distinction of rung 2 and rung 3. As the example shows, you can't answer counterfactual questions with just information and assumptions about interventions. This is made clear with the three steps for computing a counterfactual:





    1. Step 1 (abduction): update the probability of unobserved factors $P(u)$ in light of the observed evidence $P(u|e)$


    2. Step 2 (action): perform the action in the model (for instance $do(x))$.


    3. Step 3 (prediction): predict $Y$ in the modified model.


    This will not be possible to compute without some functional information about the causal model, or without some information about latent variables.






    share|cite|improve this answer



























      up vote
      3
      down vote



      accepted










      The main difference of interventions and counterfactuals is that with interventions you are asking what will happen on average if you perform an action, and in counterfactuals you are asking what would have happened had you taken a different course of action in a specific situation, given that you have information about what actually happened. Note that, since you already know what happened in the actual world, you need to update your information about the past in light of the evidence you have observed.



      These two types of queries are mathematically distinct because they require different levels of information to be answered (counterfactuals need more information to be answered) and even more elaborate language to be articulated!.



      With Rung 3 information you can answer Rung 2 questions, but not the other way around. More precisely, you cannot answer counterfactual questions with just interventional information. Examples where the clash of interventions and counterfactuals happens were already given here in CV, see this post and this post. However, for the sake of completeness, I will include an example here as well.



      The example below can be found in Causality, section 1.4.4.



      Consider that you have performed a randomized experiment where patients were randomly assigned (50% / 50%) to treatment ($x =1$) and control conditions ($x=0$), and in both treatment and control groups 50% recovered ($y=0$) and 50% died ($y=1$). That is $P(y|x) = 0.5~~~forall x,y$.



      The result of the experiment tells you that the average causal effect of the intervention is zero. This is a rung 2 question, $P(Y = 1|do(X = 1)) - P(Y=1|do(X =0) = 0$.



      But now let us ask the following question: what percentage of those patients who died under treatment would have recovered had they not taken the treatment? Mathematically, you want to compute $P(Y_{0} = 0|X =1, Y = 1)$.



      This question cannot be answered just with the interventional data you have. The proof is simple: I can create two different causal models that will have the same interventional distributions, yet different counterfactual distributions. The two are provided below:



      enter image description here



      Here, $U$ amounts to unobserved factors that explain how the patient reacts to the treatment. You can think of factors that explain treatment heterogeneity, for instance. Note the marginal distribution $P(y, x)$ of both models agree.



      Note that, in the first model, no one is affected by the treatment, thus the percentage of those patients who died under treatment that would have recovered had they not taken the treatment is zero.



      However, in the second model, every patient is affected by the treatment, and we have a mixture of two populations in which the average causal effect turns out to be zero. In this example, the counterfactual quantity now goes to 100% --- in Model 2, all patients who died under treatment would have recovered had they not taken the treatment.



      Thus, there's a clear distinction of rung 2 and rung 3. As the example shows, you can't answer counterfactual questions with just information and assumptions about interventions. This is made clear with the three steps for computing a counterfactual:





      1. Step 1 (abduction): update the probability of unobserved factors $P(u)$ in light of the observed evidence $P(u|e)$


      2. Step 2 (action): perform the action in the model (for instance $do(x))$.


      3. Step 3 (prediction): predict $Y$ in the modified model.


      This will not be possible to compute without some functional information about the causal model, or without some information about latent variables.






      share|cite|improve this answer

























        up vote
        3
        down vote



        accepted







        up vote
        3
        down vote



        accepted






        The main difference of interventions and counterfactuals is that with interventions you are asking what will happen on average if you perform an action, and in counterfactuals you are asking what would have happened had you taken a different course of action in a specific situation, given that you have information about what actually happened. Note that, since you already know what happened in the actual world, you need to update your information about the past in light of the evidence you have observed.



        These two types of queries are mathematically distinct because they require different levels of information to be answered (counterfactuals need more information to be answered) and even more elaborate language to be articulated!.



        With Rung 3 information you can answer Rung 2 questions, but not the other way around. More precisely, you cannot answer counterfactual questions with just interventional information. Examples where the clash of interventions and counterfactuals happens were already given here in CV, see this post and this post. However, for the sake of completeness, I will include an example here as well.



        The example below can be found in Causality, section 1.4.4.



        Consider that you have performed a randomized experiment where patients were randomly assigned (50% / 50%) to treatment ($x =1$) and control conditions ($x=0$), and in both treatment and control groups 50% recovered ($y=0$) and 50% died ($y=1$). That is $P(y|x) = 0.5~~~forall x,y$.



        The result of the experiment tells you that the average causal effect of the intervention is zero. This is a rung 2 question, $P(Y = 1|do(X = 1)) - P(Y=1|do(X =0) = 0$.



        But now let us ask the following question: what percentage of those patients who died under treatment would have recovered had they not taken the treatment? Mathematically, you want to compute $P(Y_{0} = 0|X =1, Y = 1)$.



        This question cannot be answered just with the interventional data you have. The proof is simple: I can create two different causal models that will have the same interventional distributions, yet different counterfactual distributions. The two are provided below:



        enter image description here



        Here, $U$ amounts to unobserved factors that explain how the patient reacts to the treatment. You can think of factors that explain treatment heterogeneity, for instance. Note the marginal distribution $P(y, x)$ of both models agree.



        Note that, in the first model, no one is affected by the treatment, thus the percentage of those patients who died under treatment that would have recovered had they not taken the treatment is zero.



        However, in the second model, every patient is affected by the treatment, and we have a mixture of two populations in which the average causal effect turns out to be zero. In this example, the counterfactual quantity now goes to 100% --- in Model 2, all patients who died under treatment would have recovered had they not taken the treatment.



        Thus, there's a clear distinction of rung 2 and rung 3. As the example shows, you can't answer counterfactual questions with just information and assumptions about interventions. This is made clear with the three steps for computing a counterfactual:





        1. Step 1 (abduction): update the probability of unobserved factors $P(u)$ in light of the observed evidence $P(u|e)$


        2. Step 2 (action): perform the action in the model (for instance $do(x))$.


        3. Step 3 (prediction): predict $Y$ in the modified model.


        This will not be possible to compute without some functional information about the causal model, or without some information about latent variables.






        share|cite|improve this answer














        The main difference of interventions and counterfactuals is that with interventions you are asking what will happen on average if you perform an action, and in counterfactuals you are asking what would have happened had you taken a different course of action in a specific situation, given that you have information about what actually happened. Note that, since you already know what happened in the actual world, you need to update your information about the past in light of the evidence you have observed.



        These two types of queries are mathematically distinct because they require different levels of information to be answered (counterfactuals need more information to be answered) and even more elaborate language to be articulated!.



        With Rung 3 information you can answer Rung 2 questions, but not the other way around. More precisely, you cannot answer counterfactual questions with just interventional information. Examples where the clash of interventions and counterfactuals happens were already given here in CV, see this post and this post. However, for the sake of completeness, I will include an example here as well.



        The example below can be found in Causality, section 1.4.4.



        Consider that you have performed a randomized experiment where patients were randomly assigned (50% / 50%) to treatment ($x =1$) and control conditions ($x=0$), and in both treatment and control groups 50% recovered ($y=0$) and 50% died ($y=1$). That is $P(y|x) = 0.5~~~forall x,y$.



        The result of the experiment tells you that the average causal effect of the intervention is zero. This is a rung 2 question, $P(Y = 1|do(X = 1)) - P(Y=1|do(X =0) = 0$.



        But now let us ask the following question: what percentage of those patients who died under treatment would have recovered had they not taken the treatment? Mathematically, you want to compute $P(Y_{0} = 0|X =1, Y = 1)$.



        This question cannot be answered just with the interventional data you have. The proof is simple: I can create two different causal models that will have the same interventional distributions, yet different counterfactual distributions. The two are provided below:



        enter image description here



        Here, $U$ amounts to unobserved factors that explain how the patient reacts to the treatment. You can think of factors that explain treatment heterogeneity, for instance. Note the marginal distribution $P(y, x)$ of both models agree.



        Note that, in the first model, no one is affected by the treatment, thus the percentage of those patients who died under treatment that would have recovered had they not taken the treatment is zero.



        However, in the second model, every patient is affected by the treatment, and we have a mixture of two populations in which the average causal effect turns out to be zero. In this example, the counterfactual quantity now goes to 100% --- in Model 2, all patients who died under treatment would have recovered had they not taken the treatment.



        Thus, there's a clear distinction of rung 2 and rung 3. As the example shows, you can't answer counterfactual questions with just information and assumptions about interventions. This is made clear with the three steps for computing a counterfactual:





        1. Step 1 (abduction): update the probability of unobserved factors $P(u)$ in light of the observed evidence $P(u|e)$


        2. Step 2 (action): perform the action in the model (for instance $do(x))$.


        3. Step 3 (prediction): predict $Y$ in the modified model.


        This will not be possible to compute without some functional information about the causal model, or without some information about latent variables.







        share|cite|improve this answer














        share|cite|improve this answer



        share|cite|improve this answer








        edited 2 hours ago

























        answered 4 hours ago









        Carlos Cinelli

        5,18042146




        5,18042146






























            draft saved

            draft discarded




















































            Thanks for contributing an answer to Cross Validated!


            • Please be sure to answer the question. Provide details and share your research!

            But avoid



            • Asking for help, clarification, or responding to other answers.

            • Making statements based on opinion; back them up with references or personal experience.


            Use MathJax to format equations. MathJax reference.


            To learn more, see our tips on writing great answers.





            Some of your past answers have not been well-received, and you're in danger of being blocked from answering.


            Please pay close attention to the following guidance:


            • Please be sure to answer the question. Provide details and share your research!

            But avoid



            • Asking for help, clarification, or responding to other answers.

            • Making statements based on opinion; back them up with references or personal experience.


            To learn more, see our tips on writing great answers.




            draft saved


            draft discarded














            StackExchange.ready(
            function () {
            StackExchange.openid.initPostLogin('.new-post-login', 'https%3a%2f%2fstats.stackexchange.com%2fquestions%2f379799%2fdifference-between-rungs-two-and-three-in-the-ladder-of-causation%23new-answer', 'question_page');
            }
            );

            Post as a guest















            Required, but never shown





















































            Required, but never shown














            Required, but never shown












            Required, but never shown







            Required, but never shown

































            Required, but never shown














            Required, but never shown












            Required, but never shown







            Required, but never shown







            Popular posts from this blog

            Trompette piccolo

            Slow SSRS Report in dynamic grouping and multiple parameters

            Simon Yates (cyclisme)