Determining Impedances of an Op-Amp Circuit











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I'm trying to review some old concepts, and thus far, there was one that I couldn't really understand: impedance of circuits involving op-amps. Assuming an ideal op-amp, it has infinite input impedance and no output impedance, but that's only for the op-amp itself. I'm having trouble understanding how to find the input/output impedance of some op-amp circuits as a whole.



Take the standard non-inverting amplifier for instance:





schematic





simulate this circuit – Schematic created using CircuitLab



Using the ideal op-amp rules, since the non-inverting input is connected to the input voltage through Z1, the input impedance would be infinite as no current can flow through the op-amp terminals. However, when you look at the output impedance, you remove the input source by shorting it to ground, making the non-inverting input equal to ground (as well as the inverting input). My book says that the output impedance would be 0, but I don't understand how this is the case. Replacing the load resistor with a current source, you just see an internal op-amp 'output' resistance of 0 ohms in parallel with Z2 to ground, so is that set of parallel impedances the cause of the 0 ohm output impedance? Is this logic correct?



It feels that because of the nature of the ideal op-amp having 0 output resistance, all op-amp circuits would have 0 output resistance. Is this always the case, or are there some exceptions? I'm trying to develop some methodologies for measuring such impedances in circuit problems as it's hard for me to wrap my head around.










share|improve this question


























    up vote
    2
    down vote

    favorite












    I'm trying to review some old concepts, and thus far, there was one that I couldn't really understand: impedance of circuits involving op-amps. Assuming an ideal op-amp, it has infinite input impedance and no output impedance, but that's only for the op-amp itself. I'm having trouble understanding how to find the input/output impedance of some op-amp circuits as a whole.



    Take the standard non-inverting amplifier for instance:





    schematic





    simulate this circuit – Schematic created using CircuitLab



    Using the ideal op-amp rules, since the non-inverting input is connected to the input voltage through Z1, the input impedance would be infinite as no current can flow through the op-amp terminals. However, when you look at the output impedance, you remove the input source by shorting it to ground, making the non-inverting input equal to ground (as well as the inverting input). My book says that the output impedance would be 0, but I don't understand how this is the case. Replacing the load resistor with a current source, you just see an internal op-amp 'output' resistance of 0 ohms in parallel with Z2 to ground, so is that set of parallel impedances the cause of the 0 ohm output impedance? Is this logic correct?



    It feels that because of the nature of the ideal op-amp having 0 output resistance, all op-amp circuits would have 0 output resistance. Is this always the case, or are there some exceptions? I'm trying to develop some methodologies for measuring such impedances in circuit problems as it's hard for me to wrap my head around.










    share|improve this question
























      up vote
      2
      down vote

      favorite









      up vote
      2
      down vote

      favorite











      I'm trying to review some old concepts, and thus far, there was one that I couldn't really understand: impedance of circuits involving op-amps. Assuming an ideal op-amp, it has infinite input impedance and no output impedance, but that's only for the op-amp itself. I'm having trouble understanding how to find the input/output impedance of some op-amp circuits as a whole.



      Take the standard non-inverting amplifier for instance:





      schematic





      simulate this circuit – Schematic created using CircuitLab



      Using the ideal op-amp rules, since the non-inverting input is connected to the input voltage through Z1, the input impedance would be infinite as no current can flow through the op-amp terminals. However, when you look at the output impedance, you remove the input source by shorting it to ground, making the non-inverting input equal to ground (as well as the inverting input). My book says that the output impedance would be 0, but I don't understand how this is the case. Replacing the load resistor with a current source, you just see an internal op-amp 'output' resistance of 0 ohms in parallel with Z2 to ground, so is that set of parallel impedances the cause of the 0 ohm output impedance? Is this logic correct?



      It feels that because of the nature of the ideal op-amp having 0 output resistance, all op-amp circuits would have 0 output resistance. Is this always the case, or are there some exceptions? I'm trying to develop some methodologies for measuring such impedances in circuit problems as it's hard for me to wrap my head around.










      share|improve this question













      I'm trying to review some old concepts, and thus far, there was one that I couldn't really understand: impedance of circuits involving op-amps. Assuming an ideal op-amp, it has infinite input impedance and no output impedance, but that's only for the op-amp itself. I'm having trouble understanding how to find the input/output impedance of some op-amp circuits as a whole.



      Take the standard non-inverting amplifier for instance:





      schematic





      simulate this circuit – Schematic created using CircuitLab



      Using the ideal op-amp rules, since the non-inverting input is connected to the input voltage through Z1, the input impedance would be infinite as no current can flow through the op-amp terminals. However, when you look at the output impedance, you remove the input source by shorting it to ground, making the non-inverting input equal to ground (as well as the inverting input). My book says that the output impedance would be 0, but I don't understand how this is the case. Replacing the load resistor with a current source, you just see an internal op-amp 'output' resistance of 0 ohms in parallel with Z2 to ground, so is that set of parallel impedances the cause of the 0 ohm output impedance? Is this logic correct?



      It feels that because of the nature of the ideal op-amp having 0 output resistance, all op-amp circuits would have 0 output resistance. Is this always the case, or are there some exceptions? I'm trying to develop some methodologies for measuring such impedances in circuit problems as it's hard for me to wrap my head around.







      op-amp impedance output






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      asked 5 hours ago









      user101402

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          The op-amps themselves don't have zero output impedance but when configured with negative feedback they do.




          Using the ideal op-amp rules, since the non-inverting input is connected to the input voltage through Z1, the input impedance would be infinite as no current can flow through the op-amp terminals.




          That's OK.




          However, when you look at the output impedance, you remove the input source by shorting it to ground, making the non-inverting input equal to ground (as well as the inverting input). My book says that the output impedance would be 0, but I don't understand how this is the case.




          I find that the 0 V input case is less helpful than, say a 1 V input case as it is too easy to balance out circuits with 0s everywhere. Let's use 1 V. And lets add some external Rout to make the output obviously non-ideal.





          schematic





          simulate this circuit – Schematic created using CircuitLab



          Figure 1. Rout is the output impedance of the op-amp.



          With Rout in circuit, ask yourself what does the output of OA1 have to do to get 1 V at the inverting input? Answer: it has to get the voltage at OUT = $ frac {Z_3}{Z_2+Z_3} V_{IN} $. That means that the output of the op-amp actually has to go some distance beyond Vout
          to compensate for the voltage drop across the output resistance.




          It feels that because of the nature of the ideal op-amp having 0 output resistance, all op-amp circuits would have 0 output resistance.




          Again, it's not the op-amp itself but rather the feedback that gives the circuit this nature.



          Does that help?






          share|improve this answer




























            up vote
            1
            down vote













            Just to add a little more to Transistor's answer (a mathematical approach).



            You can look at it this way. This is the circuit model of the op amp (with intrinsic output impedance) plus the external resistors:





            schematic





            simulate this circuit – Schematic created using CircuitLab



            Obviously from the circuit, $V^+=0$. You can try to find and expression for $dfrac{V_{text{test}}}{I_{text{test}}}$.



            Also $V^-=V_{text{test}}dfrac{R_1}{R_1+R_2}$, $I_o=dfrac{V_{text{test}}+AV^-}{R_o}$, and $I_f=dfrac{V_{text{test}}}{R_F+R_1}$.



            You combine those, and obtain:



            $$ dfrac{V_{text{test}}}{I_{text{test}}}=dfrac{R_o(R_1+R_F)}{R_1+R_F+AR_1+R_o}$$



            Given the fact that $A$ is a really large number (the op amp open-loop gain), the $AR_1$ term dominates in the denominator.



            So,



            $$ dfrac{V_{text{test}}}{I_{text{test}}} approx dfrac{R_o(R_1+R_F)}{AR_1}$$



            Remember that $G=dfrac{R_1+R_F}{R_1}=1+dfrac{R_F}{R_1}$ is the closed loop gain. Which allows to further re-write this as:



            $$ dfrac{V_{text{test}}}{I_{text{test}}} approx dfrac{R_oG}{A}to 0$$



            And that approaches zero or a very low value. As you can see the output impedance under negative feedback is even smaller than the intrinsic output impedance of the op amp given the fact that $A$ is large and $G$ is no doubt much smaller. If you were to just ignore $R_o$ this would be ideally zero.






            share|improve this answer






























              up vote
              0
              down vote













              The 90 degree phase_shift of the OPAMP's open loop gain has the result of producing an Inductive Zout.



              This Zout, when loaded with a capacitor, results in ringing that may need dampening.



              A good value, to place between the OpAMP output pin and the Capacitor, is R = sqrt(L / C).





              share





















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                up vote
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                The op-amps themselves don't have zero output impedance but when configured with negative feedback they do.




                Using the ideal op-amp rules, since the non-inverting input is connected to the input voltage through Z1, the input impedance would be infinite as no current can flow through the op-amp terminals.




                That's OK.




                However, when you look at the output impedance, you remove the input source by shorting it to ground, making the non-inverting input equal to ground (as well as the inverting input). My book says that the output impedance would be 0, but I don't understand how this is the case.




                I find that the 0 V input case is less helpful than, say a 1 V input case as it is too easy to balance out circuits with 0s everywhere. Let's use 1 V. And lets add some external Rout to make the output obviously non-ideal.





                schematic





                simulate this circuit – Schematic created using CircuitLab



                Figure 1. Rout is the output impedance of the op-amp.



                With Rout in circuit, ask yourself what does the output of OA1 have to do to get 1 V at the inverting input? Answer: it has to get the voltage at OUT = $ frac {Z_3}{Z_2+Z_3} V_{IN} $. That means that the output of the op-amp actually has to go some distance beyond Vout
                to compensate for the voltage drop across the output resistance.




                It feels that because of the nature of the ideal op-amp having 0 output resistance, all op-amp circuits would have 0 output resistance.




                Again, it's not the op-amp itself but rather the feedback that gives the circuit this nature.



                Does that help?






                share|improve this answer

























                  up vote
                  3
                  down vote













                  The op-amps themselves don't have zero output impedance but when configured with negative feedback they do.




                  Using the ideal op-amp rules, since the non-inverting input is connected to the input voltage through Z1, the input impedance would be infinite as no current can flow through the op-amp terminals.




                  That's OK.




                  However, when you look at the output impedance, you remove the input source by shorting it to ground, making the non-inverting input equal to ground (as well as the inverting input). My book says that the output impedance would be 0, but I don't understand how this is the case.




                  I find that the 0 V input case is less helpful than, say a 1 V input case as it is too easy to balance out circuits with 0s everywhere. Let's use 1 V. And lets add some external Rout to make the output obviously non-ideal.





                  schematic





                  simulate this circuit – Schematic created using CircuitLab



                  Figure 1. Rout is the output impedance of the op-amp.



                  With Rout in circuit, ask yourself what does the output of OA1 have to do to get 1 V at the inverting input? Answer: it has to get the voltage at OUT = $ frac {Z_3}{Z_2+Z_3} V_{IN} $. That means that the output of the op-amp actually has to go some distance beyond Vout
                  to compensate for the voltage drop across the output resistance.




                  It feels that because of the nature of the ideal op-amp having 0 output resistance, all op-amp circuits would have 0 output resistance.




                  Again, it's not the op-amp itself but rather the feedback that gives the circuit this nature.



                  Does that help?






                  share|improve this answer























                    up vote
                    3
                    down vote










                    up vote
                    3
                    down vote









                    The op-amps themselves don't have zero output impedance but when configured with negative feedback they do.




                    Using the ideal op-amp rules, since the non-inverting input is connected to the input voltage through Z1, the input impedance would be infinite as no current can flow through the op-amp terminals.




                    That's OK.




                    However, when you look at the output impedance, you remove the input source by shorting it to ground, making the non-inverting input equal to ground (as well as the inverting input). My book says that the output impedance would be 0, but I don't understand how this is the case.




                    I find that the 0 V input case is less helpful than, say a 1 V input case as it is too easy to balance out circuits with 0s everywhere. Let's use 1 V. And lets add some external Rout to make the output obviously non-ideal.





                    schematic





                    simulate this circuit – Schematic created using CircuitLab



                    Figure 1. Rout is the output impedance of the op-amp.



                    With Rout in circuit, ask yourself what does the output of OA1 have to do to get 1 V at the inverting input? Answer: it has to get the voltage at OUT = $ frac {Z_3}{Z_2+Z_3} V_{IN} $. That means that the output of the op-amp actually has to go some distance beyond Vout
                    to compensate for the voltage drop across the output resistance.




                    It feels that because of the nature of the ideal op-amp having 0 output resistance, all op-amp circuits would have 0 output resistance.




                    Again, it's not the op-amp itself but rather the feedback that gives the circuit this nature.



                    Does that help?






                    share|improve this answer












                    The op-amps themselves don't have zero output impedance but when configured with negative feedback they do.




                    Using the ideal op-amp rules, since the non-inverting input is connected to the input voltage through Z1, the input impedance would be infinite as no current can flow through the op-amp terminals.




                    That's OK.




                    However, when you look at the output impedance, you remove the input source by shorting it to ground, making the non-inverting input equal to ground (as well as the inverting input). My book says that the output impedance would be 0, but I don't understand how this is the case.




                    I find that the 0 V input case is less helpful than, say a 1 V input case as it is too easy to balance out circuits with 0s everywhere. Let's use 1 V. And lets add some external Rout to make the output obviously non-ideal.





                    schematic





                    simulate this circuit – Schematic created using CircuitLab



                    Figure 1. Rout is the output impedance of the op-amp.



                    With Rout in circuit, ask yourself what does the output of OA1 have to do to get 1 V at the inverting input? Answer: it has to get the voltage at OUT = $ frac {Z_3}{Z_2+Z_3} V_{IN} $. That means that the output of the op-amp actually has to go some distance beyond Vout
                    to compensate for the voltage drop across the output resistance.




                    It feels that because of the nature of the ideal op-amp having 0 output resistance, all op-amp circuits would have 0 output resistance.




                    Again, it's not the op-amp itself but rather the feedback that gives the circuit this nature.



                    Does that help?







                    share|improve this answer












                    share|improve this answer



                    share|improve this answer










                    answered 5 hours ago









                    Transistor

                    79.5k777172




                    79.5k777172
























                        up vote
                        1
                        down vote













                        Just to add a little more to Transistor's answer (a mathematical approach).



                        You can look at it this way. This is the circuit model of the op amp (with intrinsic output impedance) plus the external resistors:





                        schematic





                        simulate this circuit – Schematic created using CircuitLab



                        Obviously from the circuit, $V^+=0$. You can try to find and expression for $dfrac{V_{text{test}}}{I_{text{test}}}$.



                        Also $V^-=V_{text{test}}dfrac{R_1}{R_1+R_2}$, $I_o=dfrac{V_{text{test}}+AV^-}{R_o}$, and $I_f=dfrac{V_{text{test}}}{R_F+R_1}$.



                        You combine those, and obtain:



                        $$ dfrac{V_{text{test}}}{I_{text{test}}}=dfrac{R_o(R_1+R_F)}{R_1+R_F+AR_1+R_o}$$



                        Given the fact that $A$ is a really large number (the op amp open-loop gain), the $AR_1$ term dominates in the denominator.



                        So,



                        $$ dfrac{V_{text{test}}}{I_{text{test}}} approx dfrac{R_o(R_1+R_F)}{AR_1}$$



                        Remember that $G=dfrac{R_1+R_F}{R_1}=1+dfrac{R_F}{R_1}$ is the closed loop gain. Which allows to further re-write this as:



                        $$ dfrac{V_{text{test}}}{I_{text{test}}} approx dfrac{R_oG}{A}to 0$$



                        And that approaches zero or a very low value. As you can see the output impedance under negative feedback is even smaller than the intrinsic output impedance of the op amp given the fact that $A$ is large and $G$ is no doubt much smaller. If you were to just ignore $R_o$ this would be ideally zero.






                        share|improve this answer



























                          up vote
                          1
                          down vote













                          Just to add a little more to Transistor's answer (a mathematical approach).



                          You can look at it this way. This is the circuit model of the op amp (with intrinsic output impedance) plus the external resistors:





                          schematic





                          simulate this circuit – Schematic created using CircuitLab



                          Obviously from the circuit, $V^+=0$. You can try to find and expression for $dfrac{V_{text{test}}}{I_{text{test}}}$.



                          Also $V^-=V_{text{test}}dfrac{R_1}{R_1+R_2}$, $I_o=dfrac{V_{text{test}}+AV^-}{R_o}$, and $I_f=dfrac{V_{text{test}}}{R_F+R_1}$.



                          You combine those, and obtain:



                          $$ dfrac{V_{text{test}}}{I_{text{test}}}=dfrac{R_o(R_1+R_F)}{R_1+R_F+AR_1+R_o}$$



                          Given the fact that $A$ is a really large number (the op amp open-loop gain), the $AR_1$ term dominates in the denominator.



                          So,



                          $$ dfrac{V_{text{test}}}{I_{text{test}}} approx dfrac{R_o(R_1+R_F)}{AR_1}$$



                          Remember that $G=dfrac{R_1+R_F}{R_1}=1+dfrac{R_F}{R_1}$ is the closed loop gain. Which allows to further re-write this as:



                          $$ dfrac{V_{text{test}}}{I_{text{test}}} approx dfrac{R_oG}{A}to 0$$



                          And that approaches zero or a very low value. As you can see the output impedance under negative feedback is even smaller than the intrinsic output impedance of the op amp given the fact that $A$ is large and $G$ is no doubt much smaller. If you were to just ignore $R_o$ this would be ideally zero.






                          share|improve this answer

























                            up vote
                            1
                            down vote










                            up vote
                            1
                            down vote









                            Just to add a little more to Transistor's answer (a mathematical approach).



                            You can look at it this way. This is the circuit model of the op amp (with intrinsic output impedance) plus the external resistors:





                            schematic





                            simulate this circuit – Schematic created using CircuitLab



                            Obviously from the circuit, $V^+=0$. You can try to find and expression for $dfrac{V_{text{test}}}{I_{text{test}}}$.



                            Also $V^-=V_{text{test}}dfrac{R_1}{R_1+R_2}$, $I_o=dfrac{V_{text{test}}+AV^-}{R_o}$, and $I_f=dfrac{V_{text{test}}}{R_F+R_1}$.



                            You combine those, and obtain:



                            $$ dfrac{V_{text{test}}}{I_{text{test}}}=dfrac{R_o(R_1+R_F)}{R_1+R_F+AR_1+R_o}$$



                            Given the fact that $A$ is a really large number (the op amp open-loop gain), the $AR_1$ term dominates in the denominator.



                            So,



                            $$ dfrac{V_{text{test}}}{I_{text{test}}} approx dfrac{R_o(R_1+R_F)}{AR_1}$$



                            Remember that $G=dfrac{R_1+R_F}{R_1}=1+dfrac{R_F}{R_1}$ is the closed loop gain. Which allows to further re-write this as:



                            $$ dfrac{V_{text{test}}}{I_{text{test}}} approx dfrac{R_oG}{A}to 0$$



                            And that approaches zero or a very low value. As you can see the output impedance under negative feedback is even smaller than the intrinsic output impedance of the op amp given the fact that $A$ is large and $G$ is no doubt much smaller. If you were to just ignore $R_o$ this would be ideally zero.






                            share|improve this answer














                            Just to add a little more to Transistor's answer (a mathematical approach).



                            You can look at it this way. This is the circuit model of the op amp (with intrinsic output impedance) plus the external resistors:





                            schematic





                            simulate this circuit – Schematic created using CircuitLab



                            Obviously from the circuit, $V^+=0$. You can try to find and expression for $dfrac{V_{text{test}}}{I_{text{test}}}$.



                            Also $V^-=V_{text{test}}dfrac{R_1}{R_1+R_2}$, $I_o=dfrac{V_{text{test}}+AV^-}{R_o}$, and $I_f=dfrac{V_{text{test}}}{R_F+R_1}$.



                            You combine those, and obtain:



                            $$ dfrac{V_{text{test}}}{I_{text{test}}}=dfrac{R_o(R_1+R_F)}{R_1+R_F+AR_1+R_o}$$



                            Given the fact that $A$ is a really large number (the op amp open-loop gain), the $AR_1$ term dominates in the denominator.



                            So,



                            $$ dfrac{V_{text{test}}}{I_{text{test}}} approx dfrac{R_o(R_1+R_F)}{AR_1}$$



                            Remember that $G=dfrac{R_1+R_F}{R_1}=1+dfrac{R_F}{R_1}$ is the closed loop gain. Which allows to further re-write this as:



                            $$ dfrac{V_{text{test}}}{I_{text{test}}} approx dfrac{R_oG}{A}to 0$$



                            And that approaches zero or a very low value. As you can see the output impedance under negative feedback is even smaller than the intrinsic output impedance of the op amp given the fact that $A$ is large and $G$ is no doubt much smaller. If you were to just ignore $R_o$ this would be ideally zero.







                            share|improve this answer














                            share|improve this answer



                            share|improve this answer








                            edited 1 hour ago









                            Null

                            4,843102233




                            4,843102233










                            answered 2 hours ago









                            Big6

                            2,8371615




                            2,8371615






















                                up vote
                                0
                                down vote













                                The 90 degree phase_shift of the OPAMP's open loop gain has the result of producing an Inductive Zout.



                                This Zout, when loaded with a capacitor, results in ringing that may need dampening.



                                A good value, to place between the OpAMP output pin and the Capacitor, is R = sqrt(L / C).





                                share

























                                  up vote
                                  0
                                  down vote













                                  The 90 degree phase_shift of the OPAMP's open loop gain has the result of producing an Inductive Zout.



                                  This Zout, when loaded with a capacitor, results in ringing that may need dampening.



                                  A good value, to place between the OpAMP output pin and the Capacitor, is R = sqrt(L / C).





                                  share























                                    up vote
                                    0
                                    down vote










                                    up vote
                                    0
                                    down vote









                                    The 90 degree phase_shift of the OPAMP's open loop gain has the result of producing an Inductive Zout.



                                    This Zout, when loaded with a capacitor, results in ringing that may need dampening.



                                    A good value, to place between the OpAMP output pin and the Capacitor, is R = sqrt(L / C).





                                    share












                                    The 90 degree phase_shift of the OPAMP's open loop gain has the result of producing an Inductive Zout.



                                    This Zout, when loaded with a capacitor, results in ringing that may need dampening.



                                    A good value, to place between the OpAMP output pin and the Capacitor, is R = sqrt(L / C).






                                    share











                                    share


                                    share










                                    answered 4 mins ago









                                    analogsystemsrf

                                    13.4k2716




                                    13.4k2716






























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