Why did the Torah need to be given if the Avos knew and kept it?











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It is a common theme in aggadic literature that




  • The Avos were incredible tzadikim

  • They more-or-less kept the entire Torah, including some derabannans


If the mitzvos were already known and kept, and the full text was not necessary for them to have perfection in their middos, why was Revelation necessary?



(I would guess that a potential answer is that their descendants forgot it, but that also seems strange. See also here.)










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  • Do the agados you refer to address the question? Which are the agados you have in mind that express this theme?
    – WAF
    4 hours ago










  • Related: judaism.stackexchange.com/questions/4078/avot-keeping-mitzvot
    – Isaac Moses
    1 hour ago















up vote
4
down vote

favorite












It is a common theme in aggadic literature that




  • The Avos were incredible tzadikim

  • They more-or-less kept the entire Torah, including some derabannans


If the mitzvos were already known and kept, and the full text was not necessary for them to have perfection in their middos, why was Revelation necessary?



(I would guess that a potential answer is that their descendants forgot it, but that also seems strange. See also here.)










share|improve this question






















  • Do the agados you refer to address the question? Which are the agados you have in mind that express this theme?
    – WAF
    4 hours ago










  • Related: judaism.stackexchange.com/questions/4078/avot-keeping-mitzvot
    – Isaac Moses
    1 hour ago













up vote
4
down vote

favorite









up vote
4
down vote

favorite











It is a common theme in aggadic literature that




  • The Avos were incredible tzadikim

  • They more-or-less kept the entire Torah, including some derabannans


If the mitzvos were already known and kept, and the full text was not necessary for them to have perfection in their middos, why was Revelation necessary?



(I would guess that a potential answer is that their descendants forgot it, but that also seems strange. See also here.)










share|improve this question













It is a common theme in aggadic literature that




  • The Avos were incredible tzadikim

  • They more-or-less kept the entire Torah, including some derabannans


If the mitzvos were already known and kept, and the full text was not necessary for them to have perfection in their middos, why was Revelation necessary?



(I would guess that a potential answer is that their descendants forgot it, but that also seems strange. See also here.)







avot-patriarch-fathers kabbalat-hatorah genesis-bereishith






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asked 7 hours ago









Arithmomaniac

609413




609413












  • Do the agados you refer to address the question? Which are the agados you have in mind that express this theme?
    – WAF
    4 hours ago










  • Related: judaism.stackexchange.com/questions/4078/avot-keeping-mitzvot
    – Isaac Moses
    1 hour ago


















  • Do the agados you refer to address the question? Which are the agados you have in mind that express this theme?
    – WAF
    4 hours ago










  • Related: judaism.stackexchange.com/questions/4078/avot-keeping-mitzvot
    – Isaac Moses
    1 hour ago
















Do the agados you refer to address the question? Which are the agados you have in mind that express this theme?
– WAF
4 hours ago




Do the agados you refer to address the question? Which are the agados you have in mind that express this theme?
– WAF
4 hours ago












Related: judaism.stackexchange.com/questions/4078/avot-keeping-mitzvot
– Isaac Moses
1 hour ago




Related: judaism.stackexchange.com/questions/4078/avot-keeping-mitzvot
– Isaac Moses
1 hour ago










1 Answer
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1) Revelation at Har Sinai was necessary to make it mandatory. As Mizrachi explains, the reason Avraham waited, until commanded, to perform circumcision is because there is greater merit in fulfilling a commanded mitzvah than an uncommanded one.



2) See the Rashba's explanation / understanding of this idea, that they were spiritually sophisticated and understood and intuited the fundamentals, applying it to their unique circumstances. This is not the same as keeping all the mitzvot.



3) But even according to the common explanation, Chazal said regarding Avraham "that his two kidneys expressed to him chochma like two teachers". This is intuition and knowledge of how to act, in according with Biblical and even Rabbinic law. Without a fixed text and methods by which to understand principles and derive law, one cannot expect subsequent generations to be similarly sophisticated and intuit how to act.






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    1 Answer
    1






    active

    oldest

    votes








    1 Answer
    1






    active

    oldest

    votes









    active

    oldest

    votes






    active

    oldest

    votes








    up vote
    6
    down vote













    1) Revelation at Har Sinai was necessary to make it mandatory. As Mizrachi explains, the reason Avraham waited, until commanded, to perform circumcision is because there is greater merit in fulfilling a commanded mitzvah than an uncommanded one.



    2) See the Rashba's explanation / understanding of this idea, that they were spiritually sophisticated and understood and intuited the fundamentals, applying it to their unique circumstances. This is not the same as keeping all the mitzvot.



    3) But even according to the common explanation, Chazal said regarding Avraham "that his two kidneys expressed to him chochma like two teachers". This is intuition and knowledge of how to act, in according with Biblical and even Rabbinic law. Without a fixed text and methods by which to understand principles and derive law, one cannot expect subsequent generations to be similarly sophisticated and intuit how to act.






    share|improve this answer

























      up vote
      6
      down vote













      1) Revelation at Har Sinai was necessary to make it mandatory. As Mizrachi explains, the reason Avraham waited, until commanded, to perform circumcision is because there is greater merit in fulfilling a commanded mitzvah than an uncommanded one.



      2) See the Rashba's explanation / understanding of this idea, that they were spiritually sophisticated and understood and intuited the fundamentals, applying it to their unique circumstances. This is not the same as keeping all the mitzvot.



      3) But even according to the common explanation, Chazal said regarding Avraham "that his two kidneys expressed to him chochma like two teachers". This is intuition and knowledge of how to act, in according with Biblical and even Rabbinic law. Without a fixed text and methods by which to understand principles and derive law, one cannot expect subsequent generations to be similarly sophisticated and intuit how to act.






      share|improve this answer























        up vote
        6
        down vote










        up vote
        6
        down vote









        1) Revelation at Har Sinai was necessary to make it mandatory. As Mizrachi explains, the reason Avraham waited, until commanded, to perform circumcision is because there is greater merit in fulfilling a commanded mitzvah than an uncommanded one.



        2) See the Rashba's explanation / understanding of this idea, that they were spiritually sophisticated and understood and intuited the fundamentals, applying it to their unique circumstances. This is not the same as keeping all the mitzvot.



        3) But even according to the common explanation, Chazal said regarding Avraham "that his two kidneys expressed to him chochma like two teachers". This is intuition and knowledge of how to act, in according with Biblical and even Rabbinic law. Without a fixed text and methods by which to understand principles and derive law, one cannot expect subsequent generations to be similarly sophisticated and intuit how to act.






        share|improve this answer












        1) Revelation at Har Sinai was necessary to make it mandatory. As Mizrachi explains, the reason Avraham waited, until commanded, to perform circumcision is because there is greater merit in fulfilling a commanded mitzvah than an uncommanded one.



        2) See the Rashba's explanation / understanding of this idea, that they were spiritually sophisticated and understood and intuited the fundamentals, applying it to their unique circumstances. This is not the same as keeping all the mitzvot.



        3) But even according to the common explanation, Chazal said regarding Avraham "that his two kidneys expressed to him chochma like two teachers". This is intuition and knowledge of how to act, in according with Biblical and even Rabbinic law. Without a fixed text and methods by which to understand principles and derive law, one cannot expect subsequent generations to be similarly sophisticated and intuit how to act.







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        answered 2 hours ago









        josh waxman

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