Selling food to the enemy
The castle is under siege. The inhabitants are running out of food but have plenty of gold.
The attackers have food supplies but need money to keep them coming.
Does it make sense for the attackers to sell food to the castle-dwellers at inflated prices in order to get all their gold rather than simply starving them out at the beginning?
If this is so then why has no-one ever done it?
I think perhaps I should say something about why I think it's a good idea.
If you simply starve the castle-dwellers from the start then they will likely bury all their valuables in the hope of recovering them later. They will also start eating valuable animals such as horses.
If you give them food in exchange for their valuables of all kinds then you have both the gold and the valuables. Once they no longer have anything worthwhile to pay you with, then you can start to starve them out.
reality-check warfare food currency siege
|
show 3 more comments
The castle is under siege. The inhabitants are running out of food but have plenty of gold.
The attackers have food supplies but need money to keep them coming.
Does it make sense for the attackers to sell food to the castle-dwellers at inflated prices in order to get all their gold rather than simply starving them out at the beginning?
If this is so then why has no-one ever done it?
I think perhaps I should say something about why I think it's a good idea.
If you simply starve the castle-dwellers from the start then they will likely bury all their valuables in the hope of recovering them later. They will also start eating valuable animals such as horses.
If you give them food in exchange for their valuables of all kinds then you have both the gold and the valuables. Once they no longer have anything worthwhile to pay you with, then you can start to starve them out.
reality-check warfare food currency siege
2
What happens to the gold if the siege is successful?
– a CVn♦
13 hours ago
The point is that the besieged might bury or hide their gold if they are simply starved out. They might hope to survive and dig it up later. If they are forced to pay for food then they get all the gold before starvation starts.
– chasly from UK
13 hours ago
1
From a simple accounting perspective, this makes no sense: Sieges are massively expensive. The probable cost of paying, equipping, and feeding the enormous besieging force each day is likely to be much greater than the wealth you can extract from the besieged enemy that day. There are much cheaper and easier ways to acquire access to the hoarded wealth: Blackmail. embezzlement, marriage, alliance, etc. Shakespeare would write a devious protagonist who pretended to ally with the wealthy castle-owner, spending the castle's money without even needing to move it out of it's current location.
– user535733
12 hours ago
3
Why would the defenders trust the attackers not to add poison?
– Chronocidal
12 hours ago
@Chronocidal - Well they are starving and rich people would employ peasants as food tasters.
– chasly from UK
12 hours ago
|
show 3 more comments
The castle is under siege. The inhabitants are running out of food but have plenty of gold.
The attackers have food supplies but need money to keep them coming.
Does it make sense for the attackers to sell food to the castle-dwellers at inflated prices in order to get all their gold rather than simply starving them out at the beginning?
If this is so then why has no-one ever done it?
I think perhaps I should say something about why I think it's a good idea.
If you simply starve the castle-dwellers from the start then they will likely bury all their valuables in the hope of recovering them later. They will also start eating valuable animals such as horses.
If you give them food in exchange for their valuables of all kinds then you have both the gold and the valuables. Once they no longer have anything worthwhile to pay you with, then you can start to starve them out.
reality-check warfare food currency siege
The castle is under siege. The inhabitants are running out of food but have plenty of gold.
The attackers have food supplies but need money to keep them coming.
Does it make sense for the attackers to sell food to the castle-dwellers at inflated prices in order to get all their gold rather than simply starving them out at the beginning?
If this is so then why has no-one ever done it?
I think perhaps I should say something about why I think it's a good idea.
If you simply starve the castle-dwellers from the start then they will likely bury all their valuables in the hope of recovering them later. They will also start eating valuable animals such as horses.
If you give them food in exchange for their valuables of all kinds then you have both the gold and the valuables. Once they no longer have anything worthwhile to pay you with, then you can start to starve them out.
reality-check warfare food currency siege
reality-check warfare food currency siege
edited 12 hours ago
asked 14 hours ago
chasly from UK
11.8k351108
11.8k351108
2
What happens to the gold if the siege is successful?
– a CVn♦
13 hours ago
The point is that the besieged might bury or hide their gold if they are simply starved out. They might hope to survive and dig it up later. If they are forced to pay for food then they get all the gold before starvation starts.
– chasly from UK
13 hours ago
1
From a simple accounting perspective, this makes no sense: Sieges are massively expensive. The probable cost of paying, equipping, and feeding the enormous besieging force each day is likely to be much greater than the wealth you can extract from the besieged enemy that day. There are much cheaper and easier ways to acquire access to the hoarded wealth: Blackmail. embezzlement, marriage, alliance, etc. Shakespeare would write a devious protagonist who pretended to ally with the wealthy castle-owner, spending the castle's money without even needing to move it out of it's current location.
– user535733
12 hours ago
3
Why would the defenders trust the attackers not to add poison?
– Chronocidal
12 hours ago
@Chronocidal - Well they are starving and rich people would employ peasants as food tasters.
– chasly from UK
12 hours ago
|
show 3 more comments
2
What happens to the gold if the siege is successful?
– a CVn♦
13 hours ago
The point is that the besieged might bury or hide their gold if they are simply starved out. They might hope to survive and dig it up later. If they are forced to pay for food then they get all the gold before starvation starts.
– chasly from UK
13 hours ago
1
From a simple accounting perspective, this makes no sense: Sieges are massively expensive. The probable cost of paying, equipping, and feeding the enormous besieging force each day is likely to be much greater than the wealth you can extract from the besieged enemy that day. There are much cheaper and easier ways to acquire access to the hoarded wealth: Blackmail. embezzlement, marriage, alliance, etc. Shakespeare would write a devious protagonist who pretended to ally with the wealthy castle-owner, spending the castle's money without even needing to move it out of it's current location.
– user535733
12 hours ago
3
Why would the defenders trust the attackers not to add poison?
– Chronocidal
12 hours ago
@Chronocidal - Well they are starving and rich people would employ peasants as food tasters.
– chasly from UK
12 hours ago
2
2
What happens to the gold if the siege is successful?
– a CVn♦
13 hours ago
What happens to the gold if the siege is successful?
– a CVn♦
13 hours ago
The point is that the besieged might bury or hide their gold if they are simply starved out. They might hope to survive and dig it up later. If they are forced to pay for food then they get all the gold before starvation starts.
– chasly from UK
13 hours ago
The point is that the besieged might bury or hide their gold if they are simply starved out. They might hope to survive and dig it up later. If they are forced to pay for food then they get all the gold before starvation starts.
– chasly from UK
13 hours ago
1
1
From a simple accounting perspective, this makes no sense: Sieges are massively expensive. The probable cost of paying, equipping, and feeding the enormous besieging force each day is likely to be much greater than the wealth you can extract from the besieged enemy that day. There are much cheaper and easier ways to acquire access to the hoarded wealth: Blackmail. embezzlement, marriage, alliance, etc. Shakespeare would write a devious protagonist who pretended to ally with the wealthy castle-owner, spending the castle's money without even needing to move it out of it's current location.
– user535733
12 hours ago
From a simple accounting perspective, this makes no sense: Sieges are massively expensive. The probable cost of paying, equipping, and feeding the enormous besieging force each day is likely to be much greater than the wealth you can extract from the besieged enemy that day. There are much cheaper and easier ways to acquire access to the hoarded wealth: Blackmail. embezzlement, marriage, alliance, etc. Shakespeare would write a devious protagonist who pretended to ally with the wealthy castle-owner, spending the castle's money without even needing to move it out of it's current location.
– user535733
12 hours ago
3
3
Why would the defenders trust the attackers not to add poison?
– Chronocidal
12 hours ago
Why would the defenders trust the attackers not to add poison?
– Chronocidal
12 hours ago
@Chronocidal - Well they are starving and rich people would employ peasants as food tasters.
– chasly from UK
12 hours ago
@Chronocidal - Well they are starving and rich people would employ peasants as food tasters.
– chasly from UK
12 hours ago
|
show 3 more comments
7 Answers
7
active
oldest
votes
It makes no sense, as the attackers will obtain all the gold of the besieged anyway, as soon as the defense has fallen. Selling food to the defenders is the worst possible action, as it increases the losses of the attackers who need to resupply, keep their troops healthy and motivated without being able to do much. Time is essential in a Siege. The longer it takes, the higher the risk of winter, reinforcements, changing alignments breaking the siege. And hunger is your best weapon, breaking your enemies' resolve, morale and ability to fight most reliably and within a reasonable amount of time.
1
I think it makes some sense. As I said above, "The point is that the besieged might bury or hide their gold if they are simply starved out. They might hope to survive and dig it up later. If they are forced to pay for food then the attackers get all the gold before starvation starts."
– chasly from UK
13 hours ago
3
The winners will have plenty of time to discover the gold's hiding places. They can always "gently encourage" a few survivors to remember.
– user535733
12 hours ago
"the attackers will obtain all the gold of the besieged anyway, as soon as the defense has fallen" - but what if the attackers need the gold to pay their mercenaries, without whom they won't be able to take the castle?
– vsz
11 hours ago
@vsz - if they need the gold to pay their army, it behooves the besieged to wait them out.
– jdunlop
9 hours ago
It's only mentioned in passing but the threat of reinforcements is the big one: the longer the siege takes, the more likely it is that the defenders can round up a bigger army and march it over to break the siege. That's the ultimate point of fortifications after all - make the siege take long enough that you have time to send over your army and drive off whoever's trying to attack you
– Pingcode
8 hours ago
add a comment |
This would be a good thing for a story.
In general, those in charge who are directing a siege want to starve out the occupants of the city under siege. This is because the besieged site for whatever reason cannot be taken by direct military action.
The troops who are actually conducting the siege might have very different motivations. These commoners might have been drafted to fight, compelled to stay by force or stay in the hope of getting loot when the city falls. Individuals among these common soldiers might very well surreptitiously take the chance of selling food to persons in the city under siege. These individuals make some profit in the short term - which makes sense if maybe the city is not going to fall or for some reason they are not going to get any loot. If someone catches one of these opportunists, that person might be in trouble - or might just have to hand over half the gold...
Blockade runners could be considered an example of this. A naval blockade is a type of siege. A port city dependent on resupply by sea is prevented from resupply by the blockading naval force. The blockade runners evade the blockade to resupply to city. Could the blockade runners be members of the same navy that is doing the blockade? A wily captain might try to butter his bread on both sides this way.
add a comment |
In tribal warfare trading with the enemy is normal, even in the modern age in conflicts like the ongoing Syrian war. The factions were trading fuel and weapons, even though those same weapons would likely be turned against them. So the concept itself is not entirely irrational. It's very much a matter of the sort of war you're having.
However, half the purpose of a siege is to starve the castle out, so you're not going to be trading them food. Once the castle runs out of food you've won, so you're not going to act in a way that extends the siege beyond the minimum necessary, regardless of any other potential returns.
If you're worried about them burying the gold, simply force them to ransom themselves. They have to give you the gold in exchange for free passage out.
add a comment |
This only makes sense if the gold is what the attackers want
If the attackers are looking for land or political influence, then this doesn't make sense at all. Why prolong the engagement if the gold isn't the #1 reason you're there? Why risk your people and your own supplies?
If the gold is what you want, selling food until you have all the gold is a dandy solution. If the gold isn't the single most important reason you're there, this is a remarkably foolish tactic.
Yes, but now you have all the gold and then you can stop supplying food and start starving them out. Or indeed you can ask for other valuables.
– chasly from UK
13 hours ago
@Chasly if you were going to untimately take the castle why not just start off doing that rather than delaying it. This only makes sense as a form of extortion; where you get most of the rewards without having to risk getting killed storming the walls
– Richard Tingle
10 hours ago
My point is, if the gold isn't the only reason you're there, then ultimately you pay a higher price by giving them time. sieges are never simple. The cost of posting & supplying the army. The unreast caused by their absence. The loss of strength and prestige while they're away. Better hope nobody lays siege to you while you're wasting time bartering for some gold.
– JBH
9 hours ago
add a comment |
This is Normal
First of all, this is the case in so many other contexts as well. "Your money or your life" If the armed robber is really ready to kill someone, they won't even ask the question. They do ask the question because they don't really want to kill someone, they just want the money. But they are ready to kill if that's the only way to get the money.
Similarly, the attackers don't really want to kill people, or have them die of starvation. They'd rather get the money, the castle and slaves. So they are perfectly content to get the gold and wait on the castle. The people willing to trade rather than starve are the same people who will, in the end, rather surrender and become slaves than die defending the castle. Well, the leaders will probably get killed anyway, as leaders tend not to make great slaves, but most of the people in the castle were effectively slaves to the owners of the castle anyway, so they'll gladly become slaves of the other side instead of dying of starvation if that is an option.
Where do the attackers get the food? From the peasants surrounding the castle who have already been beaten into submission. So they don't actually spend the gold on food, they spend it on luxuries and send part of it (reportedly "all") home to their king.
For those who say that they would never do such a thing, keep in mind that a common way of managing far-flung lands was to have them pay tribute (a.k.a. exorbitant taxes), so getting a steady income stream from the castle was really just a prelude to the long-term situation. (Until the revolt...)
1
But is it normal in a siege? Do you have any evidence for this?
– chasly from UK
13 hours ago
@chaslyfromUK I don't know. But this is WorldBuilding, not History.
– manassehkatz
13 hours ago
@chaslyfromUK In the era of castle building in medieval Europe it was not common to take slaves from capturing a castle, slavery had been replaced by serfdom in many places. There were some slaves particularly of other religions such as captured Muslims in parts of Southern Europe but it was not widespread.
– Sarriesfan
1 hour ago
add a comment |
It's a genious idea, if you're the attacker.
Poison the food, sell the food. Get the gold and the castle after a few days only.
In all seriousness, if you're undersiege you should be very wary of anything the attacker would give you. I don't think accepting food from it is very smart.
And from the attacker point of view, giving food without poisoning it will prolong the siege and it isn't something you want.
- If your army is here, it isn't somewhere else defending your towns and forts which are open for an attack from another army.
- The defenders may be waiting on reinforcements to break the siege.
add a comment |
Negotiate their surrender
If the besieged are starting to feel so hungry that they are ready to trade valuables for food, it's a bit like a partial surrender. Before that, their point was that they could protect their valuable from you. Now they need your goodwill to keep them safe. Then you know it's a good time to start negotiating their full surrender instead.
After all, surrender is this: give us what we want and we'll give you what we want in return. So you can offer:
Give us your gold, horses, access to your castle, head of your king
why not, etc. And we will give you some food, you stay alive and we
reduce the military presence at your door a bit. From now on you pay
taxes to us and your military serves us or die.
Instead of only offering some food for some gold.
add a comment |
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7 Answers
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7 Answers
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It makes no sense, as the attackers will obtain all the gold of the besieged anyway, as soon as the defense has fallen. Selling food to the defenders is the worst possible action, as it increases the losses of the attackers who need to resupply, keep their troops healthy and motivated without being able to do much. Time is essential in a Siege. The longer it takes, the higher the risk of winter, reinforcements, changing alignments breaking the siege. And hunger is your best weapon, breaking your enemies' resolve, morale and ability to fight most reliably and within a reasonable amount of time.
1
I think it makes some sense. As I said above, "The point is that the besieged might bury or hide their gold if they are simply starved out. They might hope to survive and dig it up later. If they are forced to pay for food then the attackers get all the gold before starvation starts."
– chasly from UK
13 hours ago
3
The winners will have plenty of time to discover the gold's hiding places. They can always "gently encourage" a few survivors to remember.
– user535733
12 hours ago
"the attackers will obtain all the gold of the besieged anyway, as soon as the defense has fallen" - but what if the attackers need the gold to pay their mercenaries, without whom they won't be able to take the castle?
– vsz
11 hours ago
@vsz - if they need the gold to pay their army, it behooves the besieged to wait them out.
– jdunlop
9 hours ago
It's only mentioned in passing but the threat of reinforcements is the big one: the longer the siege takes, the more likely it is that the defenders can round up a bigger army and march it over to break the siege. That's the ultimate point of fortifications after all - make the siege take long enough that you have time to send over your army and drive off whoever's trying to attack you
– Pingcode
8 hours ago
add a comment |
It makes no sense, as the attackers will obtain all the gold of the besieged anyway, as soon as the defense has fallen. Selling food to the defenders is the worst possible action, as it increases the losses of the attackers who need to resupply, keep their troops healthy and motivated without being able to do much. Time is essential in a Siege. The longer it takes, the higher the risk of winter, reinforcements, changing alignments breaking the siege. And hunger is your best weapon, breaking your enemies' resolve, morale and ability to fight most reliably and within a reasonable amount of time.
1
I think it makes some sense. As I said above, "The point is that the besieged might bury or hide their gold if they are simply starved out. They might hope to survive and dig it up later. If they are forced to pay for food then the attackers get all the gold before starvation starts."
– chasly from UK
13 hours ago
3
The winners will have plenty of time to discover the gold's hiding places. They can always "gently encourage" a few survivors to remember.
– user535733
12 hours ago
"the attackers will obtain all the gold of the besieged anyway, as soon as the defense has fallen" - but what if the attackers need the gold to pay their mercenaries, without whom they won't be able to take the castle?
– vsz
11 hours ago
@vsz - if they need the gold to pay their army, it behooves the besieged to wait them out.
– jdunlop
9 hours ago
It's only mentioned in passing but the threat of reinforcements is the big one: the longer the siege takes, the more likely it is that the defenders can round up a bigger army and march it over to break the siege. That's the ultimate point of fortifications after all - make the siege take long enough that you have time to send over your army and drive off whoever's trying to attack you
– Pingcode
8 hours ago
add a comment |
It makes no sense, as the attackers will obtain all the gold of the besieged anyway, as soon as the defense has fallen. Selling food to the defenders is the worst possible action, as it increases the losses of the attackers who need to resupply, keep their troops healthy and motivated without being able to do much. Time is essential in a Siege. The longer it takes, the higher the risk of winter, reinforcements, changing alignments breaking the siege. And hunger is your best weapon, breaking your enemies' resolve, morale and ability to fight most reliably and within a reasonable amount of time.
It makes no sense, as the attackers will obtain all the gold of the besieged anyway, as soon as the defense has fallen. Selling food to the defenders is the worst possible action, as it increases the losses of the attackers who need to resupply, keep their troops healthy and motivated without being able to do much. Time is essential in a Siege. The longer it takes, the higher the risk of winter, reinforcements, changing alignments breaking the siege. And hunger is your best weapon, breaking your enemies' resolve, morale and ability to fight most reliably and within a reasonable amount of time.
answered 13 hours ago
Alex2006
3,8153828
3,8153828
1
I think it makes some sense. As I said above, "The point is that the besieged might bury or hide their gold if they are simply starved out. They might hope to survive and dig it up later. If they are forced to pay for food then the attackers get all the gold before starvation starts."
– chasly from UK
13 hours ago
3
The winners will have plenty of time to discover the gold's hiding places. They can always "gently encourage" a few survivors to remember.
– user535733
12 hours ago
"the attackers will obtain all the gold of the besieged anyway, as soon as the defense has fallen" - but what if the attackers need the gold to pay their mercenaries, without whom they won't be able to take the castle?
– vsz
11 hours ago
@vsz - if they need the gold to pay their army, it behooves the besieged to wait them out.
– jdunlop
9 hours ago
It's only mentioned in passing but the threat of reinforcements is the big one: the longer the siege takes, the more likely it is that the defenders can round up a bigger army and march it over to break the siege. That's the ultimate point of fortifications after all - make the siege take long enough that you have time to send over your army and drive off whoever's trying to attack you
– Pingcode
8 hours ago
add a comment |
1
I think it makes some sense. As I said above, "The point is that the besieged might bury or hide their gold if they are simply starved out. They might hope to survive and dig it up later. If they are forced to pay for food then the attackers get all the gold before starvation starts."
– chasly from UK
13 hours ago
3
The winners will have plenty of time to discover the gold's hiding places. They can always "gently encourage" a few survivors to remember.
– user535733
12 hours ago
"the attackers will obtain all the gold of the besieged anyway, as soon as the defense has fallen" - but what if the attackers need the gold to pay their mercenaries, without whom they won't be able to take the castle?
– vsz
11 hours ago
@vsz - if they need the gold to pay their army, it behooves the besieged to wait them out.
– jdunlop
9 hours ago
It's only mentioned in passing but the threat of reinforcements is the big one: the longer the siege takes, the more likely it is that the defenders can round up a bigger army and march it over to break the siege. That's the ultimate point of fortifications after all - make the siege take long enough that you have time to send over your army and drive off whoever's trying to attack you
– Pingcode
8 hours ago
1
1
I think it makes some sense. As I said above, "The point is that the besieged might bury or hide their gold if they are simply starved out. They might hope to survive and dig it up later. If they are forced to pay for food then the attackers get all the gold before starvation starts."
– chasly from UK
13 hours ago
I think it makes some sense. As I said above, "The point is that the besieged might bury or hide their gold if they are simply starved out. They might hope to survive and dig it up later. If they are forced to pay for food then the attackers get all the gold before starvation starts."
– chasly from UK
13 hours ago
3
3
The winners will have plenty of time to discover the gold's hiding places. They can always "gently encourage" a few survivors to remember.
– user535733
12 hours ago
The winners will have plenty of time to discover the gold's hiding places. They can always "gently encourage" a few survivors to remember.
– user535733
12 hours ago
"the attackers will obtain all the gold of the besieged anyway, as soon as the defense has fallen" - but what if the attackers need the gold to pay their mercenaries, without whom they won't be able to take the castle?
– vsz
11 hours ago
"the attackers will obtain all the gold of the besieged anyway, as soon as the defense has fallen" - but what if the attackers need the gold to pay their mercenaries, without whom they won't be able to take the castle?
– vsz
11 hours ago
@vsz - if they need the gold to pay their army, it behooves the besieged to wait them out.
– jdunlop
9 hours ago
@vsz - if they need the gold to pay their army, it behooves the besieged to wait them out.
– jdunlop
9 hours ago
It's only mentioned in passing but the threat of reinforcements is the big one: the longer the siege takes, the more likely it is that the defenders can round up a bigger army and march it over to break the siege. That's the ultimate point of fortifications after all - make the siege take long enough that you have time to send over your army and drive off whoever's trying to attack you
– Pingcode
8 hours ago
It's only mentioned in passing but the threat of reinforcements is the big one: the longer the siege takes, the more likely it is that the defenders can round up a bigger army and march it over to break the siege. That's the ultimate point of fortifications after all - make the siege take long enough that you have time to send over your army and drive off whoever's trying to attack you
– Pingcode
8 hours ago
add a comment |
This would be a good thing for a story.
In general, those in charge who are directing a siege want to starve out the occupants of the city under siege. This is because the besieged site for whatever reason cannot be taken by direct military action.
The troops who are actually conducting the siege might have very different motivations. These commoners might have been drafted to fight, compelled to stay by force or stay in the hope of getting loot when the city falls. Individuals among these common soldiers might very well surreptitiously take the chance of selling food to persons in the city under siege. These individuals make some profit in the short term - which makes sense if maybe the city is not going to fall or for some reason they are not going to get any loot. If someone catches one of these opportunists, that person might be in trouble - or might just have to hand over half the gold...
Blockade runners could be considered an example of this. A naval blockade is a type of siege. A port city dependent on resupply by sea is prevented from resupply by the blockading naval force. The blockade runners evade the blockade to resupply to city. Could the blockade runners be members of the same navy that is doing the blockade? A wily captain might try to butter his bread on both sides this way.
add a comment |
This would be a good thing for a story.
In general, those in charge who are directing a siege want to starve out the occupants of the city under siege. This is because the besieged site for whatever reason cannot be taken by direct military action.
The troops who are actually conducting the siege might have very different motivations. These commoners might have been drafted to fight, compelled to stay by force or stay in the hope of getting loot when the city falls. Individuals among these common soldiers might very well surreptitiously take the chance of selling food to persons in the city under siege. These individuals make some profit in the short term - which makes sense if maybe the city is not going to fall or for some reason they are not going to get any loot. If someone catches one of these opportunists, that person might be in trouble - or might just have to hand over half the gold...
Blockade runners could be considered an example of this. A naval blockade is a type of siege. A port city dependent on resupply by sea is prevented from resupply by the blockading naval force. The blockade runners evade the blockade to resupply to city. Could the blockade runners be members of the same navy that is doing the blockade? A wily captain might try to butter his bread on both sides this way.
add a comment |
This would be a good thing for a story.
In general, those in charge who are directing a siege want to starve out the occupants of the city under siege. This is because the besieged site for whatever reason cannot be taken by direct military action.
The troops who are actually conducting the siege might have very different motivations. These commoners might have been drafted to fight, compelled to stay by force or stay in the hope of getting loot when the city falls. Individuals among these common soldiers might very well surreptitiously take the chance of selling food to persons in the city under siege. These individuals make some profit in the short term - which makes sense if maybe the city is not going to fall or for some reason they are not going to get any loot. If someone catches one of these opportunists, that person might be in trouble - or might just have to hand over half the gold...
Blockade runners could be considered an example of this. A naval blockade is a type of siege. A port city dependent on resupply by sea is prevented from resupply by the blockading naval force. The blockade runners evade the blockade to resupply to city. Could the blockade runners be members of the same navy that is doing the blockade? A wily captain might try to butter his bread on both sides this way.
This would be a good thing for a story.
In general, those in charge who are directing a siege want to starve out the occupants of the city under siege. This is because the besieged site for whatever reason cannot be taken by direct military action.
The troops who are actually conducting the siege might have very different motivations. These commoners might have been drafted to fight, compelled to stay by force or stay in the hope of getting loot when the city falls. Individuals among these common soldiers might very well surreptitiously take the chance of selling food to persons in the city under siege. These individuals make some profit in the short term - which makes sense if maybe the city is not going to fall or for some reason they are not going to get any loot. If someone catches one of these opportunists, that person might be in trouble - or might just have to hand over half the gold...
Blockade runners could be considered an example of this. A naval blockade is a type of siege. A port city dependent on resupply by sea is prevented from resupply by the blockading naval force. The blockade runners evade the blockade to resupply to city. Could the blockade runners be members of the same navy that is doing the blockade? A wily captain might try to butter his bread on both sides this way.
answered 13 hours ago
Willk
100k25192424
100k25192424
add a comment |
add a comment |
In tribal warfare trading with the enemy is normal, even in the modern age in conflicts like the ongoing Syrian war. The factions were trading fuel and weapons, even though those same weapons would likely be turned against them. So the concept itself is not entirely irrational. It's very much a matter of the sort of war you're having.
However, half the purpose of a siege is to starve the castle out, so you're not going to be trading them food. Once the castle runs out of food you've won, so you're not going to act in a way that extends the siege beyond the minimum necessary, regardless of any other potential returns.
If you're worried about them burying the gold, simply force them to ransom themselves. They have to give you the gold in exchange for free passage out.
add a comment |
In tribal warfare trading with the enemy is normal, even in the modern age in conflicts like the ongoing Syrian war. The factions were trading fuel and weapons, even though those same weapons would likely be turned against them. So the concept itself is not entirely irrational. It's very much a matter of the sort of war you're having.
However, half the purpose of a siege is to starve the castle out, so you're not going to be trading them food. Once the castle runs out of food you've won, so you're not going to act in a way that extends the siege beyond the minimum necessary, regardless of any other potential returns.
If you're worried about them burying the gold, simply force them to ransom themselves. They have to give you the gold in exchange for free passage out.
add a comment |
In tribal warfare trading with the enemy is normal, even in the modern age in conflicts like the ongoing Syrian war. The factions were trading fuel and weapons, even though those same weapons would likely be turned against them. So the concept itself is not entirely irrational. It's very much a matter of the sort of war you're having.
However, half the purpose of a siege is to starve the castle out, so you're not going to be trading them food. Once the castle runs out of food you've won, so you're not going to act in a way that extends the siege beyond the minimum necessary, regardless of any other potential returns.
If you're worried about them burying the gold, simply force them to ransom themselves. They have to give you the gold in exchange for free passage out.
In tribal warfare trading with the enemy is normal, even in the modern age in conflicts like the ongoing Syrian war. The factions were trading fuel and weapons, even though those same weapons would likely be turned against them. So the concept itself is not entirely irrational. It's very much a matter of the sort of war you're having.
However, half the purpose of a siege is to starve the castle out, so you're not going to be trading them food. Once the castle runs out of food you've won, so you're not going to act in a way that extends the siege beyond the minimum necessary, regardless of any other potential returns.
If you're worried about them burying the gold, simply force them to ransom themselves. They have to give you the gold in exchange for free passage out.
edited 13 hours ago
answered 13 hours ago
Separatrix
76.3k30178303
76.3k30178303
add a comment |
add a comment |
This only makes sense if the gold is what the attackers want
If the attackers are looking for land or political influence, then this doesn't make sense at all. Why prolong the engagement if the gold isn't the #1 reason you're there? Why risk your people and your own supplies?
If the gold is what you want, selling food until you have all the gold is a dandy solution. If the gold isn't the single most important reason you're there, this is a remarkably foolish tactic.
Yes, but now you have all the gold and then you can stop supplying food and start starving them out. Or indeed you can ask for other valuables.
– chasly from UK
13 hours ago
@Chasly if you were going to untimately take the castle why not just start off doing that rather than delaying it. This only makes sense as a form of extortion; where you get most of the rewards without having to risk getting killed storming the walls
– Richard Tingle
10 hours ago
My point is, if the gold isn't the only reason you're there, then ultimately you pay a higher price by giving them time. sieges are never simple. The cost of posting & supplying the army. The unreast caused by their absence. The loss of strength and prestige while they're away. Better hope nobody lays siege to you while you're wasting time bartering for some gold.
– JBH
9 hours ago
add a comment |
This only makes sense if the gold is what the attackers want
If the attackers are looking for land or political influence, then this doesn't make sense at all. Why prolong the engagement if the gold isn't the #1 reason you're there? Why risk your people and your own supplies?
If the gold is what you want, selling food until you have all the gold is a dandy solution. If the gold isn't the single most important reason you're there, this is a remarkably foolish tactic.
Yes, but now you have all the gold and then you can stop supplying food and start starving them out. Or indeed you can ask for other valuables.
– chasly from UK
13 hours ago
@Chasly if you were going to untimately take the castle why not just start off doing that rather than delaying it. This only makes sense as a form of extortion; where you get most of the rewards without having to risk getting killed storming the walls
– Richard Tingle
10 hours ago
My point is, if the gold isn't the only reason you're there, then ultimately you pay a higher price by giving them time. sieges are never simple. The cost of posting & supplying the army. The unreast caused by their absence. The loss of strength and prestige while they're away. Better hope nobody lays siege to you while you're wasting time bartering for some gold.
– JBH
9 hours ago
add a comment |
This only makes sense if the gold is what the attackers want
If the attackers are looking for land or political influence, then this doesn't make sense at all. Why prolong the engagement if the gold isn't the #1 reason you're there? Why risk your people and your own supplies?
If the gold is what you want, selling food until you have all the gold is a dandy solution. If the gold isn't the single most important reason you're there, this is a remarkably foolish tactic.
This only makes sense if the gold is what the attackers want
If the attackers are looking for land or political influence, then this doesn't make sense at all. Why prolong the engagement if the gold isn't the #1 reason you're there? Why risk your people and your own supplies?
If the gold is what you want, selling food until you have all the gold is a dandy solution. If the gold isn't the single most important reason you're there, this is a remarkably foolish tactic.
answered 13 hours ago
JBH
38.8k585189
38.8k585189
Yes, but now you have all the gold and then you can stop supplying food and start starving them out. Or indeed you can ask for other valuables.
– chasly from UK
13 hours ago
@Chasly if you were going to untimately take the castle why not just start off doing that rather than delaying it. This only makes sense as a form of extortion; where you get most of the rewards without having to risk getting killed storming the walls
– Richard Tingle
10 hours ago
My point is, if the gold isn't the only reason you're there, then ultimately you pay a higher price by giving them time. sieges are never simple. The cost of posting & supplying the army. The unreast caused by their absence. The loss of strength and prestige while they're away. Better hope nobody lays siege to you while you're wasting time bartering for some gold.
– JBH
9 hours ago
add a comment |
Yes, but now you have all the gold and then you can stop supplying food and start starving them out. Or indeed you can ask for other valuables.
– chasly from UK
13 hours ago
@Chasly if you were going to untimately take the castle why not just start off doing that rather than delaying it. This only makes sense as a form of extortion; where you get most of the rewards without having to risk getting killed storming the walls
– Richard Tingle
10 hours ago
My point is, if the gold isn't the only reason you're there, then ultimately you pay a higher price by giving them time. sieges are never simple. The cost of posting & supplying the army. The unreast caused by their absence. The loss of strength and prestige while they're away. Better hope nobody lays siege to you while you're wasting time bartering for some gold.
– JBH
9 hours ago
Yes, but now you have all the gold and then you can stop supplying food and start starving them out. Or indeed you can ask for other valuables.
– chasly from UK
13 hours ago
Yes, but now you have all the gold and then you can stop supplying food and start starving them out. Or indeed you can ask for other valuables.
– chasly from UK
13 hours ago
@Chasly if you were going to untimately take the castle why not just start off doing that rather than delaying it. This only makes sense as a form of extortion; where you get most of the rewards without having to risk getting killed storming the walls
– Richard Tingle
10 hours ago
@Chasly if you were going to untimately take the castle why not just start off doing that rather than delaying it. This only makes sense as a form of extortion; where you get most of the rewards without having to risk getting killed storming the walls
– Richard Tingle
10 hours ago
My point is, if the gold isn't the only reason you're there, then ultimately you pay a higher price by giving them time. sieges are never simple. The cost of posting & supplying the army. The unreast caused by their absence. The loss of strength and prestige while they're away. Better hope nobody lays siege to you while you're wasting time bartering for some gold.
– JBH
9 hours ago
My point is, if the gold isn't the only reason you're there, then ultimately you pay a higher price by giving them time. sieges are never simple. The cost of posting & supplying the army. The unreast caused by their absence. The loss of strength and prestige while they're away. Better hope nobody lays siege to you while you're wasting time bartering for some gold.
– JBH
9 hours ago
add a comment |
This is Normal
First of all, this is the case in so many other contexts as well. "Your money or your life" If the armed robber is really ready to kill someone, they won't even ask the question. They do ask the question because they don't really want to kill someone, they just want the money. But they are ready to kill if that's the only way to get the money.
Similarly, the attackers don't really want to kill people, or have them die of starvation. They'd rather get the money, the castle and slaves. So they are perfectly content to get the gold and wait on the castle. The people willing to trade rather than starve are the same people who will, in the end, rather surrender and become slaves than die defending the castle. Well, the leaders will probably get killed anyway, as leaders tend not to make great slaves, but most of the people in the castle were effectively slaves to the owners of the castle anyway, so they'll gladly become slaves of the other side instead of dying of starvation if that is an option.
Where do the attackers get the food? From the peasants surrounding the castle who have already been beaten into submission. So they don't actually spend the gold on food, they spend it on luxuries and send part of it (reportedly "all") home to their king.
For those who say that they would never do such a thing, keep in mind that a common way of managing far-flung lands was to have them pay tribute (a.k.a. exorbitant taxes), so getting a steady income stream from the castle was really just a prelude to the long-term situation. (Until the revolt...)
1
But is it normal in a siege? Do you have any evidence for this?
– chasly from UK
13 hours ago
@chaslyfromUK I don't know. But this is WorldBuilding, not History.
– manassehkatz
13 hours ago
@chaslyfromUK In the era of castle building in medieval Europe it was not common to take slaves from capturing a castle, slavery had been replaced by serfdom in many places. There were some slaves particularly of other religions such as captured Muslims in parts of Southern Europe but it was not widespread.
– Sarriesfan
1 hour ago
add a comment |
This is Normal
First of all, this is the case in so many other contexts as well. "Your money or your life" If the armed robber is really ready to kill someone, they won't even ask the question. They do ask the question because they don't really want to kill someone, they just want the money. But they are ready to kill if that's the only way to get the money.
Similarly, the attackers don't really want to kill people, or have them die of starvation. They'd rather get the money, the castle and slaves. So they are perfectly content to get the gold and wait on the castle. The people willing to trade rather than starve are the same people who will, in the end, rather surrender and become slaves than die defending the castle. Well, the leaders will probably get killed anyway, as leaders tend not to make great slaves, but most of the people in the castle were effectively slaves to the owners of the castle anyway, so they'll gladly become slaves of the other side instead of dying of starvation if that is an option.
Where do the attackers get the food? From the peasants surrounding the castle who have already been beaten into submission. So they don't actually spend the gold on food, they spend it on luxuries and send part of it (reportedly "all") home to their king.
For those who say that they would never do such a thing, keep in mind that a common way of managing far-flung lands was to have them pay tribute (a.k.a. exorbitant taxes), so getting a steady income stream from the castle was really just a prelude to the long-term situation. (Until the revolt...)
1
But is it normal in a siege? Do you have any evidence for this?
– chasly from UK
13 hours ago
@chaslyfromUK I don't know. But this is WorldBuilding, not History.
– manassehkatz
13 hours ago
@chaslyfromUK In the era of castle building in medieval Europe it was not common to take slaves from capturing a castle, slavery had been replaced by serfdom in many places. There were some slaves particularly of other religions such as captured Muslims in parts of Southern Europe but it was not widespread.
– Sarriesfan
1 hour ago
add a comment |
This is Normal
First of all, this is the case in so many other contexts as well. "Your money or your life" If the armed robber is really ready to kill someone, they won't even ask the question. They do ask the question because they don't really want to kill someone, they just want the money. But they are ready to kill if that's the only way to get the money.
Similarly, the attackers don't really want to kill people, or have them die of starvation. They'd rather get the money, the castle and slaves. So they are perfectly content to get the gold and wait on the castle. The people willing to trade rather than starve are the same people who will, in the end, rather surrender and become slaves than die defending the castle. Well, the leaders will probably get killed anyway, as leaders tend not to make great slaves, but most of the people in the castle were effectively slaves to the owners of the castle anyway, so they'll gladly become slaves of the other side instead of dying of starvation if that is an option.
Where do the attackers get the food? From the peasants surrounding the castle who have already been beaten into submission. So they don't actually spend the gold on food, they spend it on luxuries and send part of it (reportedly "all") home to their king.
For those who say that they would never do such a thing, keep in mind that a common way of managing far-flung lands was to have them pay tribute (a.k.a. exorbitant taxes), so getting a steady income stream from the castle was really just a prelude to the long-term situation. (Until the revolt...)
This is Normal
First of all, this is the case in so many other contexts as well. "Your money or your life" If the armed robber is really ready to kill someone, they won't even ask the question. They do ask the question because they don't really want to kill someone, they just want the money. But they are ready to kill if that's the only way to get the money.
Similarly, the attackers don't really want to kill people, or have them die of starvation. They'd rather get the money, the castle and slaves. So they are perfectly content to get the gold and wait on the castle. The people willing to trade rather than starve are the same people who will, in the end, rather surrender and become slaves than die defending the castle. Well, the leaders will probably get killed anyway, as leaders tend not to make great slaves, but most of the people in the castle were effectively slaves to the owners of the castle anyway, so they'll gladly become slaves of the other side instead of dying of starvation if that is an option.
Where do the attackers get the food? From the peasants surrounding the castle who have already been beaten into submission. So they don't actually spend the gold on food, they spend it on luxuries and send part of it (reportedly "all") home to their king.
For those who say that they would never do such a thing, keep in mind that a common way of managing far-flung lands was to have them pay tribute (a.k.a. exorbitant taxes), so getting a steady income stream from the castle was really just a prelude to the long-term situation. (Until the revolt...)
edited 13 hours ago
answered 13 hours ago
manassehkatz
3,180423
3,180423
1
But is it normal in a siege? Do you have any evidence for this?
– chasly from UK
13 hours ago
@chaslyfromUK I don't know. But this is WorldBuilding, not History.
– manassehkatz
13 hours ago
@chaslyfromUK In the era of castle building in medieval Europe it was not common to take slaves from capturing a castle, slavery had been replaced by serfdom in many places. There were some slaves particularly of other religions such as captured Muslims in parts of Southern Europe but it was not widespread.
– Sarriesfan
1 hour ago
add a comment |
1
But is it normal in a siege? Do you have any evidence for this?
– chasly from UK
13 hours ago
@chaslyfromUK I don't know. But this is WorldBuilding, not History.
– manassehkatz
13 hours ago
@chaslyfromUK In the era of castle building in medieval Europe it was not common to take slaves from capturing a castle, slavery had been replaced by serfdom in many places. There were some slaves particularly of other religions such as captured Muslims in parts of Southern Europe but it was not widespread.
– Sarriesfan
1 hour ago
1
1
But is it normal in a siege? Do you have any evidence for this?
– chasly from UK
13 hours ago
But is it normal in a siege? Do you have any evidence for this?
– chasly from UK
13 hours ago
@chaslyfromUK I don't know. But this is WorldBuilding, not History.
– manassehkatz
13 hours ago
@chaslyfromUK I don't know. But this is WorldBuilding, not History.
– manassehkatz
13 hours ago
@chaslyfromUK In the era of castle building in medieval Europe it was not common to take slaves from capturing a castle, slavery had been replaced by serfdom in many places. There were some slaves particularly of other religions such as captured Muslims in parts of Southern Europe but it was not widespread.
– Sarriesfan
1 hour ago
@chaslyfromUK In the era of castle building in medieval Europe it was not common to take slaves from capturing a castle, slavery had been replaced by serfdom in many places. There were some slaves particularly of other religions such as captured Muslims in parts of Southern Europe but it was not widespread.
– Sarriesfan
1 hour ago
add a comment |
It's a genious idea, if you're the attacker.
Poison the food, sell the food. Get the gold and the castle after a few days only.
In all seriousness, if you're undersiege you should be very wary of anything the attacker would give you. I don't think accepting food from it is very smart.
And from the attacker point of view, giving food without poisoning it will prolong the siege and it isn't something you want.
- If your army is here, it isn't somewhere else defending your towns and forts which are open for an attack from another army.
- The defenders may be waiting on reinforcements to break the siege.
add a comment |
It's a genious idea, if you're the attacker.
Poison the food, sell the food. Get the gold and the castle after a few days only.
In all seriousness, if you're undersiege you should be very wary of anything the attacker would give you. I don't think accepting food from it is very smart.
And from the attacker point of view, giving food without poisoning it will prolong the siege and it isn't something you want.
- If your army is here, it isn't somewhere else defending your towns and forts which are open for an attack from another army.
- The defenders may be waiting on reinforcements to break the siege.
add a comment |
It's a genious idea, if you're the attacker.
Poison the food, sell the food. Get the gold and the castle after a few days only.
In all seriousness, if you're undersiege you should be very wary of anything the attacker would give you. I don't think accepting food from it is very smart.
And from the attacker point of view, giving food without poisoning it will prolong the siege and it isn't something you want.
- If your army is here, it isn't somewhere else defending your towns and forts which are open for an attack from another army.
- The defenders may be waiting on reinforcements to break the siege.
It's a genious idea, if you're the attacker.
Poison the food, sell the food. Get the gold and the castle after a few days only.
In all seriousness, if you're undersiege you should be very wary of anything the attacker would give you. I don't think accepting food from it is very smart.
And from the attacker point of view, giving food without poisoning it will prolong the siege and it isn't something you want.
- If your army is here, it isn't somewhere else defending your towns and forts which are open for an attack from another army.
- The defenders may be waiting on reinforcements to break the siege.
answered 17 mins ago
Echox
9811310
9811310
add a comment |
add a comment |
Negotiate their surrender
If the besieged are starting to feel so hungry that they are ready to trade valuables for food, it's a bit like a partial surrender. Before that, their point was that they could protect their valuable from you. Now they need your goodwill to keep them safe. Then you know it's a good time to start negotiating their full surrender instead.
After all, surrender is this: give us what we want and we'll give you what we want in return. So you can offer:
Give us your gold, horses, access to your castle, head of your king
why not, etc. And we will give you some food, you stay alive and we
reduce the military presence at your door a bit. From now on you pay
taxes to us and your military serves us or die.
Instead of only offering some food for some gold.
add a comment |
Negotiate their surrender
If the besieged are starting to feel so hungry that they are ready to trade valuables for food, it's a bit like a partial surrender. Before that, their point was that they could protect their valuable from you. Now they need your goodwill to keep them safe. Then you know it's a good time to start negotiating their full surrender instead.
After all, surrender is this: give us what we want and we'll give you what we want in return. So you can offer:
Give us your gold, horses, access to your castle, head of your king
why not, etc. And we will give you some food, you stay alive and we
reduce the military presence at your door a bit. From now on you pay
taxes to us and your military serves us or die.
Instead of only offering some food for some gold.
add a comment |
Negotiate their surrender
If the besieged are starting to feel so hungry that they are ready to trade valuables for food, it's a bit like a partial surrender. Before that, their point was that they could protect their valuable from you. Now they need your goodwill to keep them safe. Then you know it's a good time to start negotiating their full surrender instead.
After all, surrender is this: give us what we want and we'll give you what we want in return. So you can offer:
Give us your gold, horses, access to your castle, head of your king
why not, etc. And we will give you some food, you stay alive and we
reduce the military presence at your door a bit. From now on you pay
taxes to us and your military serves us or die.
Instead of only offering some food for some gold.
Negotiate their surrender
If the besieged are starting to feel so hungry that they are ready to trade valuables for food, it's a bit like a partial surrender. Before that, their point was that they could protect their valuable from you. Now they need your goodwill to keep them safe. Then you know it's a good time to start negotiating their full surrender instead.
After all, surrender is this: give us what we want and we'll give you what we want in return. So you can offer:
Give us your gold, horses, access to your castle, head of your king
why not, etc. And we will give you some food, you stay alive and we
reduce the military presence at your door a bit. From now on you pay
taxes to us and your military serves us or die.
Instead of only offering some food for some gold.
answered 33 mins ago
Legisey
2,8031524
2,8031524
add a comment |
add a comment |
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2
What happens to the gold if the siege is successful?
– a CVn♦
13 hours ago
The point is that the besieged might bury or hide their gold if they are simply starved out. They might hope to survive and dig it up later. If they are forced to pay for food then they get all the gold before starvation starts.
– chasly from UK
13 hours ago
1
From a simple accounting perspective, this makes no sense: Sieges are massively expensive. The probable cost of paying, equipping, and feeding the enormous besieging force each day is likely to be much greater than the wealth you can extract from the besieged enemy that day. There are much cheaper and easier ways to acquire access to the hoarded wealth: Blackmail. embezzlement, marriage, alliance, etc. Shakespeare would write a devious protagonist who pretended to ally with the wealthy castle-owner, spending the castle's money without even needing to move it out of it's current location.
– user535733
12 hours ago
3
Why would the defenders trust the attackers not to add poison?
– Chronocidal
12 hours ago
@Chronocidal - Well they are starving and rich people would employ peasants as food tasters.
– chasly from UK
12 hours ago