Which is more important in determining author order: time spent or results obtained?











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This is in the field of life sciences, i.e. a field in which the order of authors is not determined randomly but reflects author contributions (whatever that means); in other words, being first author is better than being second, which is better than third etc - except for the very last authors, who are generally the lab heads.



We're publishing a paper and two teammates have a disagreement on the order in which their names should be listed. We basically explored several strategies that were at the time all quite reasonable, so there was really no way to determine if one made more sense than another. We found that testing strategies one by one rigorously (one person per hypothesis to validate/debunk) was the most productive way to move forward. Our paper describes several mechanisms that we demonstrated could work for a certain problem.



Team member A tested several hypotheses, including one of the four that made it to the final paper.



Team member B tested more hypotheses (they were working on the project full-time, as opposed to A), and demonstrated that they were not scalable / valid strategies for our purposes. Interesting, useful for us, but not paper-worthy.



Each one of them has a pretty strong claim for having a better authorship position:



Teammate A designed and 100% tested one of the strategies that did work and that we chose to report in the paper, so their contribution is quite obvious. On the other hand teammate B spent more time on the project, debunked working hypotheses (not publishable but it had to be done at some point) and helped with the validation of other designs that worked - a contribution of 40-50% of the work on two different parts of the project.



Obviously results include a part of chance (picking the correct hypothesis/molecule/group/dataset), but time spent on the project is not a perfect metric either (working smart matters more than working long hours).



Without asking for a definite answer, how do you generally weight the importance of "what the paper shows in the end" vs. "the important but not article-worthy preliminary work"? In other words, how do you measure "contribution"? I would like to come up with a rational and objective way to determine who contributed more significantly - at least by the journal's standards.










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  • 1




    I feel your question is off-topic, because answers will be "primarily opinion-based: Many good questions generate some degree of opinion based on expert experience, but answers to this question will tend to be almost entirely based on opinions, rather than facts, references, or specific expertise." I haven't voted to close. Perhaps you can edit your question to avoid subjectivity?
    – user2768
    2 hours ago






  • 1




    Thanks for the feedback; I'm not sure why this question calls for opinions though - at least not more than most authorship-related questions. I'm precisely asking for a rational, objective and neutral way to weight contributions. Don't all questions about authorship order fall under the umbrella of "primarily opinion based" then? See eg here and here
    – Mowgli
    2 hours ago












  • I think you should add your field to the question title; the answer would be totally different for instance if this were mathematics (although in that case it's typical to just use alphabetical order).
    – David Ketcheson
    27 mins ago










  • @DavidKetcheson I thought the OP said that in the opening sentence.
    – scaaahu
    8 mins ago















up vote
5
down vote

favorite












This is in the field of life sciences, i.e. a field in which the order of authors is not determined randomly but reflects author contributions (whatever that means); in other words, being first author is better than being second, which is better than third etc - except for the very last authors, who are generally the lab heads.



We're publishing a paper and two teammates have a disagreement on the order in which their names should be listed. We basically explored several strategies that were at the time all quite reasonable, so there was really no way to determine if one made more sense than another. We found that testing strategies one by one rigorously (one person per hypothesis to validate/debunk) was the most productive way to move forward. Our paper describes several mechanisms that we demonstrated could work for a certain problem.



Team member A tested several hypotheses, including one of the four that made it to the final paper.



Team member B tested more hypotheses (they were working on the project full-time, as opposed to A), and demonstrated that they were not scalable / valid strategies for our purposes. Interesting, useful for us, but not paper-worthy.



Each one of them has a pretty strong claim for having a better authorship position:



Teammate A designed and 100% tested one of the strategies that did work and that we chose to report in the paper, so their contribution is quite obvious. On the other hand teammate B spent more time on the project, debunked working hypotheses (not publishable but it had to be done at some point) and helped with the validation of other designs that worked - a contribution of 40-50% of the work on two different parts of the project.



Obviously results include a part of chance (picking the correct hypothesis/molecule/group/dataset), but time spent on the project is not a perfect metric either (working smart matters more than working long hours).



Without asking for a definite answer, how do you generally weight the importance of "what the paper shows in the end" vs. "the important but not article-worthy preliminary work"? In other words, how do you measure "contribution"? I would like to come up with a rational and objective way to determine who contributed more significantly - at least by the journal's standards.










share|improve this question




















  • 1




    I feel your question is off-topic, because answers will be "primarily opinion-based: Many good questions generate some degree of opinion based on expert experience, but answers to this question will tend to be almost entirely based on opinions, rather than facts, references, or specific expertise." I haven't voted to close. Perhaps you can edit your question to avoid subjectivity?
    – user2768
    2 hours ago






  • 1




    Thanks for the feedback; I'm not sure why this question calls for opinions though - at least not more than most authorship-related questions. I'm precisely asking for a rational, objective and neutral way to weight contributions. Don't all questions about authorship order fall under the umbrella of "primarily opinion based" then? See eg here and here
    – Mowgli
    2 hours ago












  • I think you should add your field to the question title; the answer would be totally different for instance if this were mathematics (although in that case it's typical to just use alphabetical order).
    – David Ketcheson
    27 mins ago










  • @DavidKetcheson I thought the OP said that in the opening sentence.
    – scaaahu
    8 mins ago













up vote
5
down vote

favorite









up vote
5
down vote

favorite











This is in the field of life sciences, i.e. a field in which the order of authors is not determined randomly but reflects author contributions (whatever that means); in other words, being first author is better than being second, which is better than third etc - except for the very last authors, who are generally the lab heads.



We're publishing a paper and two teammates have a disagreement on the order in which their names should be listed. We basically explored several strategies that were at the time all quite reasonable, so there was really no way to determine if one made more sense than another. We found that testing strategies one by one rigorously (one person per hypothesis to validate/debunk) was the most productive way to move forward. Our paper describes several mechanisms that we demonstrated could work for a certain problem.



Team member A tested several hypotheses, including one of the four that made it to the final paper.



Team member B tested more hypotheses (they were working on the project full-time, as opposed to A), and demonstrated that they were not scalable / valid strategies for our purposes. Interesting, useful for us, but not paper-worthy.



Each one of them has a pretty strong claim for having a better authorship position:



Teammate A designed and 100% tested one of the strategies that did work and that we chose to report in the paper, so their contribution is quite obvious. On the other hand teammate B spent more time on the project, debunked working hypotheses (not publishable but it had to be done at some point) and helped with the validation of other designs that worked - a contribution of 40-50% of the work on two different parts of the project.



Obviously results include a part of chance (picking the correct hypothesis/molecule/group/dataset), but time spent on the project is not a perfect metric either (working smart matters more than working long hours).



Without asking for a definite answer, how do you generally weight the importance of "what the paper shows in the end" vs. "the important but not article-worthy preliminary work"? In other words, how do you measure "contribution"? I would like to come up with a rational and objective way to determine who contributed more significantly - at least by the journal's standards.










share|improve this question















This is in the field of life sciences, i.e. a field in which the order of authors is not determined randomly but reflects author contributions (whatever that means); in other words, being first author is better than being second, which is better than third etc - except for the very last authors, who are generally the lab heads.



We're publishing a paper and two teammates have a disagreement on the order in which their names should be listed. We basically explored several strategies that were at the time all quite reasonable, so there was really no way to determine if one made more sense than another. We found that testing strategies one by one rigorously (one person per hypothesis to validate/debunk) was the most productive way to move forward. Our paper describes several mechanisms that we demonstrated could work for a certain problem.



Team member A tested several hypotheses, including one of the four that made it to the final paper.



Team member B tested more hypotheses (they were working on the project full-time, as opposed to A), and demonstrated that they were not scalable / valid strategies for our purposes. Interesting, useful for us, but not paper-worthy.



Each one of them has a pretty strong claim for having a better authorship position:



Teammate A designed and 100% tested one of the strategies that did work and that we chose to report in the paper, so their contribution is quite obvious. On the other hand teammate B spent more time on the project, debunked working hypotheses (not publishable but it had to be done at some point) and helped with the validation of other designs that worked - a contribution of 40-50% of the work on two different parts of the project.



Obviously results include a part of chance (picking the correct hypothesis/molecule/group/dataset), but time spent on the project is not a perfect metric either (working smart matters more than working long hours).



Without asking for a definite answer, how do you generally weight the importance of "what the paper shows in the end" vs. "the important but not article-worthy preliminary work"? In other words, how do you measure "contribution"? I would like to come up with a rational and objective way to determine who contributed more significantly - at least by the journal's standards.







authorship






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share|improve this question








edited 29 mins ago









David Ketcheson

27.8k684138




27.8k684138










asked 2 hours ago









Mowgli

1813




1813








  • 1




    I feel your question is off-topic, because answers will be "primarily opinion-based: Many good questions generate some degree of opinion based on expert experience, but answers to this question will tend to be almost entirely based on opinions, rather than facts, references, or specific expertise." I haven't voted to close. Perhaps you can edit your question to avoid subjectivity?
    – user2768
    2 hours ago






  • 1




    Thanks for the feedback; I'm not sure why this question calls for opinions though - at least not more than most authorship-related questions. I'm precisely asking for a rational, objective and neutral way to weight contributions. Don't all questions about authorship order fall under the umbrella of "primarily opinion based" then? See eg here and here
    – Mowgli
    2 hours ago












  • I think you should add your field to the question title; the answer would be totally different for instance if this were mathematics (although in that case it's typical to just use alphabetical order).
    – David Ketcheson
    27 mins ago










  • @DavidKetcheson I thought the OP said that in the opening sentence.
    – scaaahu
    8 mins ago














  • 1




    I feel your question is off-topic, because answers will be "primarily opinion-based: Many good questions generate some degree of opinion based on expert experience, but answers to this question will tend to be almost entirely based on opinions, rather than facts, references, or specific expertise." I haven't voted to close. Perhaps you can edit your question to avoid subjectivity?
    – user2768
    2 hours ago






  • 1




    Thanks for the feedback; I'm not sure why this question calls for opinions though - at least not more than most authorship-related questions. I'm precisely asking for a rational, objective and neutral way to weight contributions. Don't all questions about authorship order fall under the umbrella of "primarily opinion based" then? See eg here and here
    – Mowgli
    2 hours ago












  • I think you should add your field to the question title; the answer would be totally different for instance if this were mathematics (although in that case it's typical to just use alphabetical order).
    – David Ketcheson
    27 mins ago










  • @DavidKetcheson I thought the OP said that in the opening sentence.
    – scaaahu
    8 mins ago








1




1




I feel your question is off-topic, because answers will be "primarily opinion-based: Many good questions generate some degree of opinion based on expert experience, but answers to this question will tend to be almost entirely based on opinions, rather than facts, references, or specific expertise." I haven't voted to close. Perhaps you can edit your question to avoid subjectivity?
– user2768
2 hours ago




I feel your question is off-topic, because answers will be "primarily opinion-based: Many good questions generate some degree of opinion based on expert experience, but answers to this question will tend to be almost entirely based on opinions, rather than facts, references, or specific expertise." I haven't voted to close. Perhaps you can edit your question to avoid subjectivity?
– user2768
2 hours ago




1




1




Thanks for the feedback; I'm not sure why this question calls for opinions though - at least not more than most authorship-related questions. I'm precisely asking for a rational, objective and neutral way to weight contributions. Don't all questions about authorship order fall under the umbrella of "primarily opinion based" then? See eg here and here
– Mowgli
2 hours ago






Thanks for the feedback; I'm not sure why this question calls for opinions though - at least not more than most authorship-related questions. I'm precisely asking for a rational, objective and neutral way to weight contributions. Don't all questions about authorship order fall under the umbrella of "primarily opinion based" then? See eg here and here
– Mowgli
2 hours ago














I think you should add your field to the question title; the answer would be totally different for instance if this were mathematics (although in that case it's typical to just use alphabetical order).
– David Ketcheson
27 mins ago




I think you should add your field to the question title; the answer would be totally different for instance if this were mathematics (although in that case it's typical to just use alphabetical order).
– David Ketcheson
27 mins ago












@DavidKetcheson I thought the OP said that in the opening sentence.
– scaaahu
8 mins ago




@DavidKetcheson I thought the OP said that in the opening sentence.
– scaaahu
8 mins ago










2 Answers
2






active

oldest

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up vote
3
down vote













In my field, this would clearly be shared (first) authorship.



As for the exact positions, in my experience one of A and B would also have been spending a lot of time as a de facto project lead that determines the course of the project and does most of the writing. In fact, in my field this would almost always be B, unless A somehow has the capabilities of effectively leading multiple projects and delegating vast proportions of the work in those projects.



I don't place a lot of value on happening to find the right solution for a problem. The way you describe this, it seems almost stochastic: A proposed four solutions and got lucky, B proposed more solutions but didn't get lucky. Obviously the situation and value of contributions changes if B could not have found the solution, but A (possibly because of greater experience) could have.



Two other considerations: first, exact position on a paper can have very different values for different people. A first first authorship can be absolutely vital for scientists who are rounding off their PhD or postdoc, whereas scientists who aren't rounding off could also obtain this in a next project. Second, maybe there are ways to even out the author contributions? One way would be to do another project together and flip author positions for that one. Another way would be that the person who doesn't get author precedence can present the work at conferences for the first year. And maybe there are better ideas that someone in your lab can come up with.






share|improve this answer




























    up vote
    3
    down vote













    Weighting contributions in a fair way can be all but impossible. As you noticed, contribution is a vector with many dimensions (time, effort, results, novelty, and whatnot). All attempts on sorting complex contributions on a single dimension axis will need agreement




    • not only about the respective extent (which is difficult to measure),


    • but also about the weighting of the elements (which needs mutual consent, as there is no "correct" answer).



    If the authors disagree about ordering of their names, they are obviously assuming different matrices for projecting the contribution vectors to a one-dimensional value (or are greedy).



    To resolve conflicts like these, you can always mention the authors in alphabetical order - maybe including the dept. chair (and add a tiny notice to the paper in order to show you did that).






    share|improve this answer

















    • 1




      The problem is that in your resume & cv it might be problematic to explain that. There are even departments demanding only "first author" papers of the graduate applicant to their Ph.D. program for this reason. And this is only one of the problem. Sorry but this can never be a solution in many departments, including but not limited to Chemistry and Environmental Engineering.
      – Güray Hatipoğlu
      1 hour ago











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    2 Answers
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    active

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    2 Answers
    2






    active

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    active

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    active

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    up vote
    3
    down vote













    In my field, this would clearly be shared (first) authorship.



    As for the exact positions, in my experience one of A and B would also have been spending a lot of time as a de facto project lead that determines the course of the project and does most of the writing. In fact, in my field this would almost always be B, unless A somehow has the capabilities of effectively leading multiple projects and delegating vast proportions of the work in those projects.



    I don't place a lot of value on happening to find the right solution for a problem. The way you describe this, it seems almost stochastic: A proposed four solutions and got lucky, B proposed more solutions but didn't get lucky. Obviously the situation and value of contributions changes if B could not have found the solution, but A (possibly because of greater experience) could have.



    Two other considerations: first, exact position on a paper can have very different values for different people. A first first authorship can be absolutely vital for scientists who are rounding off their PhD or postdoc, whereas scientists who aren't rounding off could also obtain this in a next project. Second, maybe there are ways to even out the author contributions? One way would be to do another project together and flip author positions for that one. Another way would be that the person who doesn't get author precedence can present the work at conferences for the first year. And maybe there are better ideas that someone in your lab can come up with.






    share|improve this answer

























      up vote
      3
      down vote













      In my field, this would clearly be shared (first) authorship.



      As for the exact positions, in my experience one of A and B would also have been spending a lot of time as a de facto project lead that determines the course of the project and does most of the writing. In fact, in my field this would almost always be B, unless A somehow has the capabilities of effectively leading multiple projects and delegating vast proportions of the work in those projects.



      I don't place a lot of value on happening to find the right solution for a problem. The way you describe this, it seems almost stochastic: A proposed four solutions and got lucky, B proposed more solutions but didn't get lucky. Obviously the situation and value of contributions changes if B could not have found the solution, but A (possibly because of greater experience) could have.



      Two other considerations: first, exact position on a paper can have very different values for different people. A first first authorship can be absolutely vital for scientists who are rounding off their PhD or postdoc, whereas scientists who aren't rounding off could also obtain this in a next project. Second, maybe there are ways to even out the author contributions? One way would be to do another project together and flip author positions for that one. Another way would be that the person who doesn't get author precedence can present the work at conferences for the first year. And maybe there are better ideas that someone in your lab can come up with.






      share|improve this answer























        up vote
        3
        down vote










        up vote
        3
        down vote









        In my field, this would clearly be shared (first) authorship.



        As for the exact positions, in my experience one of A and B would also have been spending a lot of time as a de facto project lead that determines the course of the project and does most of the writing. In fact, in my field this would almost always be B, unless A somehow has the capabilities of effectively leading multiple projects and delegating vast proportions of the work in those projects.



        I don't place a lot of value on happening to find the right solution for a problem. The way you describe this, it seems almost stochastic: A proposed four solutions and got lucky, B proposed more solutions but didn't get lucky. Obviously the situation and value of contributions changes if B could not have found the solution, but A (possibly because of greater experience) could have.



        Two other considerations: first, exact position on a paper can have very different values for different people. A first first authorship can be absolutely vital for scientists who are rounding off their PhD or postdoc, whereas scientists who aren't rounding off could also obtain this in a next project. Second, maybe there are ways to even out the author contributions? One way would be to do another project together and flip author positions for that one. Another way would be that the person who doesn't get author precedence can present the work at conferences for the first year. And maybe there are better ideas that someone in your lab can come up with.






        share|improve this answer












        In my field, this would clearly be shared (first) authorship.



        As for the exact positions, in my experience one of A and B would also have been spending a lot of time as a de facto project lead that determines the course of the project and does most of the writing. In fact, in my field this would almost always be B, unless A somehow has the capabilities of effectively leading multiple projects and delegating vast proportions of the work in those projects.



        I don't place a lot of value on happening to find the right solution for a problem. The way you describe this, it seems almost stochastic: A proposed four solutions and got lucky, B proposed more solutions but didn't get lucky. Obviously the situation and value of contributions changes if B could not have found the solution, but A (possibly because of greater experience) could have.



        Two other considerations: first, exact position on a paper can have very different values for different people. A first first authorship can be absolutely vital for scientists who are rounding off their PhD or postdoc, whereas scientists who aren't rounding off could also obtain this in a next project. Second, maybe there are ways to even out the author contributions? One way would be to do another project together and flip author positions for that one. Another way would be that the person who doesn't get author precedence can present the work at conferences for the first year. And maybe there are better ideas that someone in your lab can come up with.







        share|improve this answer












        share|improve this answer



        share|improve this answer










        answered 1 hour ago









        Designerpot

        2,277214




        2,277214






















            up vote
            3
            down vote













            Weighting contributions in a fair way can be all but impossible. As you noticed, contribution is a vector with many dimensions (time, effort, results, novelty, and whatnot). All attempts on sorting complex contributions on a single dimension axis will need agreement




            • not only about the respective extent (which is difficult to measure),


            • but also about the weighting of the elements (which needs mutual consent, as there is no "correct" answer).



            If the authors disagree about ordering of their names, they are obviously assuming different matrices for projecting the contribution vectors to a one-dimensional value (or are greedy).



            To resolve conflicts like these, you can always mention the authors in alphabetical order - maybe including the dept. chair (and add a tiny notice to the paper in order to show you did that).






            share|improve this answer

















            • 1




              The problem is that in your resume & cv it might be problematic to explain that. There are even departments demanding only "first author" papers of the graduate applicant to their Ph.D. program for this reason. And this is only one of the problem. Sorry but this can never be a solution in many departments, including but not limited to Chemistry and Environmental Engineering.
              – Güray Hatipoğlu
              1 hour ago















            up vote
            3
            down vote













            Weighting contributions in a fair way can be all but impossible. As you noticed, contribution is a vector with many dimensions (time, effort, results, novelty, and whatnot). All attempts on sorting complex contributions on a single dimension axis will need agreement




            • not only about the respective extent (which is difficult to measure),


            • but also about the weighting of the elements (which needs mutual consent, as there is no "correct" answer).



            If the authors disagree about ordering of their names, they are obviously assuming different matrices for projecting the contribution vectors to a one-dimensional value (or are greedy).



            To resolve conflicts like these, you can always mention the authors in alphabetical order - maybe including the dept. chair (and add a tiny notice to the paper in order to show you did that).






            share|improve this answer

















            • 1




              The problem is that in your resume & cv it might be problematic to explain that. There are even departments demanding only "first author" papers of the graduate applicant to their Ph.D. program for this reason. And this is only one of the problem. Sorry but this can never be a solution in many departments, including but not limited to Chemistry and Environmental Engineering.
              – Güray Hatipoğlu
              1 hour ago













            up vote
            3
            down vote










            up vote
            3
            down vote









            Weighting contributions in a fair way can be all but impossible. As you noticed, contribution is a vector with many dimensions (time, effort, results, novelty, and whatnot). All attempts on sorting complex contributions on a single dimension axis will need agreement




            • not only about the respective extent (which is difficult to measure),


            • but also about the weighting of the elements (which needs mutual consent, as there is no "correct" answer).



            If the authors disagree about ordering of their names, they are obviously assuming different matrices for projecting the contribution vectors to a one-dimensional value (or are greedy).



            To resolve conflicts like these, you can always mention the authors in alphabetical order - maybe including the dept. chair (and add a tiny notice to the paper in order to show you did that).






            share|improve this answer












            Weighting contributions in a fair way can be all but impossible. As you noticed, contribution is a vector with many dimensions (time, effort, results, novelty, and whatnot). All attempts on sorting complex contributions on a single dimension axis will need agreement




            • not only about the respective extent (which is difficult to measure),


            • but also about the weighting of the elements (which needs mutual consent, as there is no "correct" answer).



            If the authors disagree about ordering of their names, they are obviously assuming different matrices for projecting the contribution vectors to a one-dimensional value (or are greedy).



            To resolve conflicts like these, you can always mention the authors in alphabetical order - maybe including the dept. chair (and add a tiny notice to the paper in order to show you did that).







            share|improve this answer












            share|improve this answer



            share|improve this answer










            answered 1 hour ago









            jvb

            1,599417




            1,599417








            • 1




              The problem is that in your resume & cv it might be problematic to explain that. There are even departments demanding only "first author" papers of the graduate applicant to their Ph.D. program for this reason. And this is only one of the problem. Sorry but this can never be a solution in many departments, including but not limited to Chemistry and Environmental Engineering.
              – Güray Hatipoğlu
              1 hour ago














            • 1




              The problem is that in your resume & cv it might be problematic to explain that. There are even departments demanding only "first author" papers of the graduate applicant to their Ph.D. program for this reason. And this is only one of the problem. Sorry but this can never be a solution in many departments, including but not limited to Chemistry and Environmental Engineering.
              – Güray Hatipoğlu
              1 hour ago








            1




            1




            The problem is that in your resume & cv it might be problematic to explain that. There are even departments demanding only "first author" papers of the graduate applicant to their Ph.D. program for this reason. And this is only one of the problem. Sorry but this can never be a solution in many departments, including but not limited to Chemistry and Environmental Engineering.
            – Güray Hatipoğlu
            1 hour ago




            The problem is that in your resume & cv it might be problematic to explain that. There are even departments demanding only "first author" papers of the graduate applicant to their Ph.D. program for this reason. And this is only one of the problem. Sorry but this can never be a solution in many departments, including but not limited to Chemistry and Environmental Engineering.
            – Güray Hatipoğlu
            1 hour ago


















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