Why do E# and F♮ not sound the same (according to Wikipedia)?












5














Except from Wikipedia



I was just reading the Wikipedia page on the note F (as I do every evening) and was confused by this part where it says that even though F♮ and E# are enharmonic they “do not sound the same”.



What does the author of this sentence mean? Do they not by definition sound the same?









share









New contributor




Aran G is a new contributor to this site. Take care in asking for clarification, commenting, and answering.
Check out our Code of Conduct.




















  • Please don't post screenshots unnecessarily. Among other problems, it breaks screen-reading functionality for blind people.
    – Ben Crowell
    10 mins ago
















5














Except from Wikipedia



I was just reading the Wikipedia page on the note F (as I do every evening) and was confused by this part where it says that even though F♮ and E# are enharmonic they “do not sound the same”.



What does the author of this sentence mean? Do they not by definition sound the same?









share









New contributor




Aran G is a new contributor to this site. Take care in asking for clarification, commenting, and answering.
Check out our Code of Conduct.




















  • Please don't post screenshots unnecessarily. Among other problems, it breaks screen-reading functionality for blind people.
    – Ben Crowell
    10 mins ago














5












5








5


2





Except from Wikipedia



I was just reading the Wikipedia page on the note F (as I do every evening) and was confused by this part where it says that even though F♮ and E# are enharmonic they “do not sound the same”.



What does the author of this sentence mean? Do they not by definition sound the same?









share









New contributor




Aran G is a new contributor to this site. Take care in asking for clarification, commenting, and answering.
Check out our Code of Conduct.











Except from Wikipedia



I was just reading the Wikipedia page on the note F (as I do every evening) and was confused by this part where it says that even though F♮ and E# are enharmonic they “do not sound the same”.



What does the author of this sentence mean? Do they not by definition sound the same?







notation





share









New contributor




Aran G is a new contributor to this site. Take care in asking for clarification, commenting, and answering.
Check out our Code of Conduct.










share









New contributor




Aran G is a new contributor to this site. Take care in asking for clarification, commenting, and answering.
Check out our Code of Conduct.








share



share








edited 1 hour ago









topo morto

22.8k23798




22.8k23798






New contributor




Aran G is a new contributor to this site. Take care in asking for clarification, commenting, and answering.
Check out our Code of Conduct.









asked 6 hours ago









Aran G

314




314




New contributor




Aran G is a new contributor to this site. Take care in asking for clarification, commenting, and answering.
Check out our Code of Conduct.





New contributor





Aran G is a new contributor to this site. Take care in asking for clarification, commenting, and answering.
Check out our Code of Conduct.






Aran G is a new contributor to this site. Take care in asking for clarification, commenting, and answering.
Check out our Code of Conduct.












  • Please don't post screenshots unnecessarily. Among other problems, it breaks screen-reading functionality for blind people.
    – Ben Crowell
    10 mins ago


















  • Please don't post screenshots unnecessarily. Among other problems, it breaks screen-reading functionality for blind people.
    – Ben Crowell
    10 mins ago
















Please don't post screenshots unnecessarily. Among other problems, it breaks screen-reading functionality for blind people.
– Ben Crowell
10 mins ago




Please don't post screenshots unnecessarily. Among other problems, it breaks screen-reading functionality for blind people.
– Ben Crowell
10 mins ago










2 Answers
2






active

oldest

votes


















12














The thing is that the "some tunings that define the notes in that way" in the Wikipedia quote include the most common tuning today, 12-tone equal temperament (12-TET). So, E# and F natural do usually sound the same.



...But not always. Change the tuning system and you can easily have an E# and an F natural that sound slightly different. Just intonation will likely do it, since its perfect fifths are slightly larger than 12-TET's. (Just intonation is a mess the more of the chromatic scale you want to tune with it.)






share|improve this answer





















  • So do you mean that it’s referring to microtonal music when it says some tunings?
    – Aran G
    6 hours ago










  • @AranG It's referring to microtonal music, and also the different tunings if they don't count as microtonal.
    – Dekkadeci
    6 hours ago










  • If you have a system that defines E# and F as different frequencies, then that is not a 12-tone system. In any 12-tone system, E# and F are the same pitch class. What can happen is that you can change your tuning system on the fly if the instrument allows tuning adjustments. But "E# and F do not sound the same" is misleading, if not outright incorrect.
    – MattPutnam
    14 mins ago



















12














I think this particular phrasing is rather confusing, as it is trying to talk about two concepts at the same time: enharmonic equivalence, and intonation.



The concept of intonation (and temperament, which relates to systems of intonation) deals with the fact that even given a certain reference pitch (such as A4=440), there is no one absolutely correct frequency for the other notes to be sounded at. The exact frequencies of notes might be selected to make a certain key sound harmonious, or to be a good compromise that allows a range of keys to sound good (such as 12-tone equal temperament).



On instruments that allow the intonation to be varied by the player (such as fretless stringed instruments), the very same note - even with the same name - might be sounded at a slightly different pitch to make it sound better in a certain chord or melodic phrase. So even two notes notated as E4 might not be at the same pitch; following the logic in the quote from Wikipedia, one could go so far as to say "E and E do not sound the same".



So when the article says "E♯ and F♮ do not sound the same, except in some tunings that define the notes in that way", the fact that the note might be called both 'E♯' and 'F♮' is a little bit of a red herring; a note's intonation might vary regardless of variations in how it is named. Nevertheless, there might be some contexts in which the note notated 'F♮' tends towards one pitch, and 'E#' tends towards another.






share|improve this answer























    Your Answer








    StackExchange.ready(function() {
    var channelOptions = {
    tags: "".split(" "),
    id: "240"
    };
    initTagRenderer("".split(" "), "".split(" "), channelOptions);

    StackExchange.using("externalEditor", function() {
    // Have to fire editor after snippets, if snippets enabled
    if (StackExchange.settings.snippets.snippetsEnabled) {
    StackExchange.using("snippets", function() {
    createEditor();
    });
    }
    else {
    createEditor();
    }
    });

    function createEditor() {
    StackExchange.prepareEditor({
    heartbeatType: 'answer',
    autoActivateHeartbeat: false,
    convertImagesToLinks: false,
    noModals: true,
    showLowRepImageUploadWarning: true,
    reputationToPostImages: null,
    bindNavPrevention: true,
    postfix: "",
    imageUploader: {
    brandingHtml: "Powered by u003ca class="icon-imgur-white" href="https://imgur.com/"u003eu003c/au003e",
    contentPolicyHtml: "User contributions licensed under u003ca href="https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-sa/3.0/"u003ecc by-sa 3.0 with attribution requiredu003c/au003e u003ca href="https://stackoverflow.com/legal/content-policy"u003e(content policy)u003c/au003e",
    allowUrls: true
    },
    noCode: true, onDemand: true,
    discardSelector: ".discard-answer"
    ,immediatelyShowMarkdownHelp:true
    });


    }
    });






    Aran G is a new contributor. Be nice, and check out our Code of Conduct.










    draft saved

    draft discarded


















    StackExchange.ready(
    function () {
    StackExchange.openid.initPostLogin('.new-post-login', 'https%3a%2f%2fmusic.stackexchange.com%2fquestions%2f77929%2fwhy-do-e-and-f-not-sound-the-same-according-to-wikipedia%23new-answer', 'question_page');
    }
    );

    Post as a guest















    Required, but never shown

























    2 Answers
    2






    active

    oldest

    votes








    2 Answers
    2






    active

    oldest

    votes









    active

    oldest

    votes






    active

    oldest

    votes









    12














    The thing is that the "some tunings that define the notes in that way" in the Wikipedia quote include the most common tuning today, 12-tone equal temperament (12-TET). So, E# and F natural do usually sound the same.



    ...But not always. Change the tuning system and you can easily have an E# and an F natural that sound slightly different. Just intonation will likely do it, since its perfect fifths are slightly larger than 12-TET's. (Just intonation is a mess the more of the chromatic scale you want to tune with it.)






    share|improve this answer





















    • So do you mean that it’s referring to microtonal music when it says some tunings?
      – Aran G
      6 hours ago










    • @AranG It's referring to microtonal music, and also the different tunings if they don't count as microtonal.
      – Dekkadeci
      6 hours ago










    • If you have a system that defines E# and F as different frequencies, then that is not a 12-tone system. In any 12-tone system, E# and F are the same pitch class. What can happen is that you can change your tuning system on the fly if the instrument allows tuning adjustments. But "E# and F do not sound the same" is misleading, if not outright incorrect.
      – MattPutnam
      14 mins ago
















    12














    The thing is that the "some tunings that define the notes in that way" in the Wikipedia quote include the most common tuning today, 12-tone equal temperament (12-TET). So, E# and F natural do usually sound the same.



    ...But not always. Change the tuning system and you can easily have an E# and an F natural that sound slightly different. Just intonation will likely do it, since its perfect fifths are slightly larger than 12-TET's. (Just intonation is a mess the more of the chromatic scale you want to tune with it.)






    share|improve this answer





















    • So do you mean that it’s referring to microtonal music when it says some tunings?
      – Aran G
      6 hours ago










    • @AranG It's referring to microtonal music, and also the different tunings if they don't count as microtonal.
      – Dekkadeci
      6 hours ago










    • If you have a system that defines E# and F as different frequencies, then that is not a 12-tone system. In any 12-tone system, E# and F are the same pitch class. What can happen is that you can change your tuning system on the fly if the instrument allows tuning adjustments. But "E# and F do not sound the same" is misleading, if not outright incorrect.
      – MattPutnam
      14 mins ago














    12












    12








    12






    The thing is that the "some tunings that define the notes in that way" in the Wikipedia quote include the most common tuning today, 12-tone equal temperament (12-TET). So, E# and F natural do usually sound the same.



    ...But not always. Change the tuning system and you can easily have an E# and an F natural that sound slightly different. Just intonation will likely do it, since its perfect fifths are slightly larger than 12-TET's. (Just intonation is a mess the more of the chromatic scale you want to tune with it.)






    share|improve this answer












    The thing is that the "some tunings that define the notes in that way" in the Wikipedia quote include the most common tuning today, 12-tone equal temperament (12-TET). So, E# and F natural do usually sound the same.



    ...But not always. Change the tuning system and you can easily have an E# and an F natural that sound slightly different. Just intonation will likely do it, since its perfect fifths are slightly larger than 12-TET's. (Just intonation is a mess the more of the chromatic scale you want to tune with it.)







    share|improve this answer












    share|improve this answer



    share|improve this answer










    answered 6 hours ago









    Dekkadeci

    4,21621018




    4,21621018












    • So do you mean that it’s referring to microtonal music when it says some tunings?
      – Aran G
      6 hours ago










    • @AranG It's referring to microtonal music, and also the different tunings if they don't count as microtonal.
      – Dekkadeci
      6 hours ago










    • If you have a system that defines E# and F as different frequencies, then that is not a 12-tone system. In any 12-tone system, E# and F are the same pitch class. What can happen is that you can change your tuning system on the fly if the instrument allows tuning adjustments. But "E# and F do not sound the same" is misleading, if not outright incorrect.
      – MattPutnam
      14 mins ago


















    • So do you mean that it’s referring to microtonal music when it says some tunings?
      – Aran G
      6 hours ago










    • @AranG It's referring to microtonal music, and also the different tunings if they don't count as microtonal.
      – Dekkadeci
      6 hours ago










    • If you have a system that defines E# and F as different frequencies, then that is not a 12-tone system. In any 12-tone system, E# and F are the same pitch class. What can happen is that you can change your tuning system on the fly if the instrument allows tuning adjustments. But "E# and F do not sound the same" is misleading, if not outright incorrect.
      – MattPutnam
      14 mins ago
















    So do you mean that it’s referring to microtonal music when it says some tunings?
    – Aran G
    6 hours ago




    So do you mean that it’s referring to microtonal music when it says some tunings?
    – Aran G
    6 hours ago












    @AranG It's referring to microtonal music, and also the different tunings if they don't count as microtonal.
    – Dekkadeci
    6 hours ago




    @AranG It's referring to microtonal music, and also the different tunings if they don't count as microtonal.
    – Dekkadeci
    6 hours ago












    If you have a system that defines E# and F as different frequencies, then that is not a 12-tone system. In any 12-tone system, E# and F are the same pitch class. What can happen is that you can change your tuning system on the fly if the instrument allows tuning adjustments. But "E# and F do not sound the same" is misleading, if not outright incorrect.
    – MattPutnam
    14 mins ago




    If you have a system that defines E# and F as different frequencies, then that is not a 12-tone system. In any 12-tone system, E# and F are the same pitch class. What can happen is that you can change your tuning system on the fly if the instrument allows tuning adjustments. But "E# and F do not sound the same" is misleading, if not outright incorrect.
    – MattPutnam
    14 mins ago











    12














    I think this particular phrasing is rather confusing, as it is trying to talk about two concepts at the same time: enharmonic equivalence, and intonation.



    The concept of intonation (and temperament, which relates to systems of intonation) deals with the fact that even given a certain reference pitch (such as A4=440), there is no one absolutely correct frequency for the other notes to be sounded at. The exact frequencies of notes might be selected to make a certain key sound harmonious, or to be a good compromise that allows a range of keys to sound good (such as 12-tone equal temperament).



    On instruments that allow the intonation to be varied by the player (such as fretless stringed instruments), the very same note - even with the same name - might be sounded at a slightly different pitch to make it sound better in a certain chord or melodic phrase. So even two notes notated as E4 might not be at the same pitch; following the logic in the quote from Wikipedia, one could go so far as to say "E and E do not sound the same".



    So when the article says "E♯ and F♮ do not sound the same, except in some tunings that define the notes in that way", the fact that the note might be called both 'E♯' and 'F♮' is a little bit of a red herring; a note's intonation might vary regardless of variations in how it is named. Nevertheless, there might be some contexts in which the note notated 'F♮' tends towards one pitch, and 'E#' tends towards another.






    share|improve this answer




























      12














      I think this particular phrasing is rather confusing, as it is trying to talk about two concepts at the same time: enharmonic equivalence, and intonation.



      The concept of intonation (and temperament, which relates to systems of intonation) deals with the fact that even given a certain reference pitch (such as A4=440), there is no one absolutely correct frequency for the other notes to be sounded at. The exact frequencies of notes might be selected to make a certain key sound harmonious, or to be a good compromise that allows a range of keys to sound good (such as 12-tone equal temperament).



      On instruments that allow the intonation to be varied by the player (such as fretless stringed instruments), the very same note - even with the same name - might be sounded at a slightly different pitch to make it sound better in a certain chord or melodic phrase. So even two notes notated as E4 might not be at the same pitch; following the logic in the quote from Wikipedia, one could go so far as to say "E and E do not sound the same".



      So when the article says "E♯ and F♮ do not sound the same, except in some tunings that define the notes in that way", the fact that the note might be called both 'E♯' and 'F♮' is a little bit of a red herring; a note's intonation might vary regardless of variations in how it is named. Nevertheless, there might be some contexts in which the note notated 'F♮' tends towards one pitch, and 'E#' tends towards another.






      share|improve this answer


























        12












        12








        12






        I think this particular phrasing is rather confusing, as it is trying to talk about two concepts at the same time: enharmonic equivalence, and intonation.



        The concept of intonation (and temperament, which relates to systems of intonation) deals with the fact that even given a certain reference pitch (such as A4=440), there is no one absolutely correct frequency for the other notes to be sounded at. The exact frequencies of notes might be selected to make a certain key sound harmonious, or to be a good compromise that allows a range of keys to sound good (such as 12-tone equal temperament).



        On instruments that allow the intonation to be varied by the player (such as fretless stringed instruments), the very same note - even with the same name - might be sounded at a slightly different pitch to make it sound better in a certain chord or melodic phrase. So even two notes notated as E4 might not be at the same pitch; following the logic in the quote from Wikipedia, one could go so far as to say "E and E do not sound the same".



        So when the article says "E♯ and F♮ do not sound the same, except in some tunings that define the notes in that way", the fact that the note might be called both 'E♯' and 'F♮' is a little bit of a red herring; a note's intonation might vary regardless of variations in how it is named. Nevertheless, there might be some contexts in which the note notated 'F♮' tends towards one pitch, and 'E#' tends towards another.






        share|improve this answer














        I think this particular phrasing is rather confusing, as it is trying to talk about two concepts at the same time: enharmonic equivalence, and intonation.



        The concept of intonation (and temperament, which relates to systems of intonation) deals with the fact that even given a certain reference pitch (such as A4=440), there is no one absolutely correct frequency for the other notes to be sounded at. The exact frequencies of notes might be selected to make a certain key sound harmonious, or to be a good compromise that allows a range of keys to sound good (such as 12-tone equal temperament).



        On instruments that allow the intonation to be varied by the player (such as fretless stringed instruments), the very same note - even with the same name - might be sounded at a slightly different pitch to make it sound better in a certain chord or melodic phrase. So even two notes notated as E4 might not be at the same pitch; following the logic in the quote from Wikipedia, one could go so far as to say "E and E do not sound the same".



        So when the article says "E♯ and F♮ do not sound the same, except in some tunings that define the notes in that way", the fact that the note might be called both 'E♯' and 'F♮' is a little bit of a red herring; a note's intonation might vary regardless of variations in how it is named. Nevertheless, there might be some contexts in which the note notated 'F♮' tends towards one pitch, and 'E#' tends towards another.







        share|improve this answer














        share|improve this answer



        share|improve this answer








        edited 1 hour ago

























        answered 6 hours ago









        topo morto

        22.8k23798




        22.8k23798






















            Aran G is a new contributor. Be nice, and check out our Code of Conduct.










            draft saved

            draft discarded


















            Aran G is a new contributor. Be nice, and check out our Code of Conduct.













            Aran G is a new contributor. Be nice, and check out our Code of Conduct.












            Aran G is a new contributor. Be nice, and check out our Code of Conduct.
















            Thanks for contributing an answer to Music: Practice & Theory Stack Exchange!


            • Please be sure to answer the question. Provide details and share your research!

            But avoid



            • Asking for help, clarification, or responding to other answers.

            • Making statements based on opinion; back them up with references or personal experience.


            To learn more, see our tips on writing great answers.





            Some of your past answers have not been well-received, and you're in danger of being blocked from answering.


            Please pay close attention to the following guidance:


            • Please be sure to answer the question. Provide details and share your research!

            But avoid



            • Asking for help, clarification, or responding to other answers.

            • Making statements based on opinion; back them up with references or personal experience.


            To learn more, see our tips on writing great answers.




            draft saved


            draft discarded














            StackExchange.ready(
            function () {
            StackExchange.openid.initPostLogin('.new-post-login', 'https%3a%2f%2fmusic.stackexchange.com%2fquestions%2f77929%2fwhy-do-e-and-f-not-sound-the-same-according-to-wikipedia%23new-answer', 'question_page');
            }
            );

            Post as a guest















            Required, but never shown





















































            Required, but never shown














            Required, but never shown












            Required, but never shown







            Required, but never shown

































            Required, but never shown














            Required, but never shown












            Required, but never shown







            Required, but never shown







            Popular posts from this blog

            What visual should I use to simply compare current year value vs last year in Power BI desktop

            Alexandru Averescu

            Trompette piccolo