How can story points be “non linear” in relative size
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I've read in several places that story points are not necessarily linear.
i.e., an "8 point" task is not the same as two 4 point tasks and so on.
I totally get the argument about these being an indication of complexity rather than time taken.
But if they're not a linear scale, then how can you do arithmetic on them? If an 8 story point takes, say, 3 times longer than 2 x 4 story points, then how do burndown charts work from an arithmetic point of view?
If our velocity is, say, 30 a sprint then this means we could do 30 x 1 story point features. But these might be, 30 half an hour jobs. Equally if it was 2 x 15 story point features, these are probably monster tasks which seems equally unlikely.
Perhaps I am wrong in my assertion that they are non-linear?
Or can anyone explain this to me?
Thanks!
scrum
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add a comment |
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I've read in several places that story points are not necessarily linear.
i.e., an "8 point" task is not the same as two 4 point tasks and so on.
I totally get the argument about these being an indication of complexity rather than time taken.
But if they're not a linear scale, then how can you do arithmetic on them? If an 8 story point takes, say, 3 times longer than 2 x 4 story points, then how do burndown charts work from an arithmetic point of view?
If our velocity is, say, 30 a sprint then this means we could do 30 x 1 story point features. But these might be, 30 half an hour jobs. Equally if it was 2 x 15 story point features, these are probably monster tasks which seems equally unlikely.
Perhaps I am wrong in my assertion that they are non-linear?
Or can anyone explain this to me?
Thanks!
scrum
New contributor
I would recommend that you read Mike Cohn's book on User Stories: mountaingoatsoftware.com/books/user-stories-applied this will give you a good understanding of what user stories and story points represent.
– user32613
1 hour ago
add a comment |
up vote
3
down vote
favorite
up vote
3
down vote
favorite
I've read in several places that story points are not necessarily linear.
i.e., an "8 point" task is not the same as two 4 point tasks and so on.
I totally get the argument about these being an indication of complexity rather than time taken.
But if they're not a linear scale, then how can you do arithmetic on them? If an 8 story point takes, say, 3 times longer than 2 x 4 story points, then how do burndown charts work from an arithmetic point of view?
If our velocity is, say, 30 a sprint then this means we could do 30 x 1 story point features. But these might be, 30 half an hour jobs. Equally if it was 2 x 15 story point features, these are probably monster tasks which seems equally unlikely.
Perhaps I am wrong in my assertion that they are non-linear?
Or can anyone explain this to me?
Thanks!
scrum
New contributor
I've read in several places that story points are not necessarily linear.
i.e., an "8 point" task is not the same as two 4 point tasks and so on.
I totally get the argument about these being an indication of complexity rather than time taken.
But if they're not a linear scale, then how can you do arithmetic on them? If an 8 story point takes, say, 3 times longer than 2 x 4 story points, then how do burndown charts work from an arithmetic point of view?
If our velocity is, say, 30 a sprint then this means we could do 30 x 1 story point features. But these might be, 30 half an hour jobs. Equally if it was 2 x 15 story point features, these are probably monster tasks which seems equally unlikely.
Perhaps I am wrong in my assertion that they are non-linear?
Or can anyone explain this to me?
Thanks!
scrum
scrum
New contributor
New contributor
New contributor
asked 3 hours ago
John
1162
1162
New contributor
New contributor
I would recommend that you read Mike Cohn's book on User Stories: mountaingoatsoftware.com/books/user-stories-applied this will give you a good understanding of what user stories and story points represent.
– user32613
1 hour ago
add a comment |
I would recommend that you read Mike Cohn's book on User Stories: mountaingoatsoftware.com/books/user-stories-applied this will give you a good understanding of what user stories and story points represent.
– user32613
1 hour ago
I would recommend that you read Mike Cohn's book on User Stories: mountaingoatsoftware.com/books/user-stories-applied this will give you a good understanding of what user stories and story points represent.
– user32613
1 hour ago
I would recommend that you read Mike Cohn's book on User Stories: mountaingoatsoftware.com/books/user-stories-applied this will give you a good understanding of what user stories and story points represent.
– user32613
1 hour ago
add a comment |
2 Answers
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1
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I have never heard of this. Story points are linear (otherwise it would be impossible to use them as a measure of velocity). However the scale is non-linear, to stop people arguing over whether something is a "5 or a 6" - by using a psuedo-fibonacci sequence, you automatically account for the vagueness of estimation.
This makes more sense to me. I think that maybe people have conflated the non-linear choice of numbers (the Fibonacci system) with having the numbers themselves be non linear
– John
1 hour ago
add a comment |
up vote
1
down vote
Perhaps a more accurate way to put it would be that story point estimates are imprecise. If you have a 5 and a 3, that may or may not be the same size as an 8.
To make this less confusing, let's start with a non-numeric scale like T-Shirt sizes. XS, S, M, L, XL and so on. We can agree pretty easily that a small and a medium t-shirt do not get you a large t-shirt. Yet, a large is bigger than a medium and a lot bigger than a small, and generally smaller than an XL. Not always, of course. We all know that one company that we have to buy a different size in. User stories are the same way. It's possible I have a M that is actually bigger than some L, but this is the exception, so I can normally assume that a L is one step bigger than an M.
OK, now let's do this: XS-1, S-3, M-5, L-8, XL-13. Now, all of the same rules apply. It is possible in some edge cases that a 5 is actually bigger than some 8, but generally speaking an 8 is one step bigger than a 5.
Then there is the topic of velocity. Because the relationship between the sizes is generally consistent, we can add the sizes together and if we work at a consistent pace we will have a fairly consistent total. It won't be perfect - maybe 45 - 52, but that is consistent enough to be useful for planning. If you have 35 points in the sprint, it is probably too little in this case and 60 is almost certainly too much. This is also why most forecasts are a range, not a precise measurement.
OK. I think I understand. But in our mental-models we should be aiming for linear scale right? I mean, we know things are imprecise, but in an ideal world they would be perfectly linear? It would be wrong for a team to say "We believe that an 8 is 3 times larger than a 5" for example?
– John
1 hour ago
add a comment |
2 Answers
2
active
oldest
votes
2 Answers
2
active
oldest
votes
active
oldest
votes
active
oldest
votes
up vote
1
down vote
I have never heard of this. Story points are linear (otherwise it would be impossible to use them as a measure of velocity). However the scale is non-linear, to stop people arguing over whether something is a "5 or a 6" - by using a psuedo-fibonacci sequence, you automatically account for the vagueness of estimation.
This makes more sense to me. I think that maybe people have conflated the non-linear choice of numbers (the Fibonacci system) with having the numbers themselves be non linear
– John
1 hour ago
add a comment |
up vote
1
down vote
I have never heard of this. Story points are linear (otherwise it would be impossible to use them as a measure of velocity). However the scale is non-linear, to stop people arguing over whether something is a "5 or a 6" - by using a psuedo-fibonacci sequence, you automatically account for the vagueness of estimation.
This makes more sense to me. I think that maybe people have conflated the non-linear choice of numbers (the Fibonacci system) with having the numbers themselves be non linear
– John
1 hour ago
add a comment |
up vote
1
down vote
up vote
1
down vote
I have never heard of this. Story points are linear (otherwise it would be impossible to use them as a measure of velocity). However the scale is non-linear, to stop people arguing over whether something is a "5 or a 6" - by using a psuedo-fibonacci sequence, you automatically account for the vagueness of estimation.
I have never heard of this. Story points are linear (otherwise it would be impossible to use them as a measure of velocity). However the scale is non-linear, to stop people arguing over whether something is a "5 or a 6" - by using a psuedo-fibonacci sequence, you automatically account for the vagueness of estimation.
answered 2 hours ago
Baracus
23514
23514
This makes more sense to me. I think that maybe people have conflated the non-linear choice of numbers (the Fibonacci system) with having the numbers themselves be non linear
– John
1 hour ago
add a comment |
This makes more sense to me. I think that maybe people have conflated the non-linear choice of numbers (the Fibonacci system) with having the numbers themselves be non linear
– John
1 hour ago
This makes more sense to me. I think that maybe people have conflated the non-linear choice of numbers (the Fibonacci system) with having the numbers themselves be non linear
– John
1 hour ago
This makes more sense to me. I think that maybe people have conflated the non-linear choice of numbers (the Fibonacci system) with having the numbers themselves be non linear
– John
1 hour ago
add a comment |
up vote
1
down vote
Perhaps a more accurate way to put it would be that story point estimates are imprecise. If you have a 5 and a 3, that may or may not be the same size as an 8.
To make this less confusing, let's start with a non-numeric scale like T-Shirt sizes. XS, S, M, L, XL and so on. We can agree pretty easily that a small and a medium t-shirt do not get you a large t-shirt. Yet, a large is bigger than a medium and a lot bigger than a small, and generally smaller than an XL. Not always, of course. We all know that one company that we have to buy a different size in. User stories are the same way. It's possible I have a M that is actually bigger than some L, but this is the exception, so I can normally assume that a L is one step bigger than an M.
OK, now let's do this: XS-1, S-3, M-5, L-8, XL-13. Now, all of the same rules apply. It is possible in some edge cases that a 5 is actually bigger than some 8, but generally speaking an 8 is one step bigger than a 5.
Then there is the topic of velocity. Because the relationship between the sizes is generally consistent, we can add the sizes together and if we work at a consistent pace we will have a fairly consistent total. It won't be perfect - maybe 45 - 52, but that is consistent enough to be useful for planning. If you have 35 points in the sprint, it is probably too little in this case and 60 is almost certainly too much. This is also why most forecasts are a range, not a precise measurement.
OK. I think I understand. But in our mental-models we should be aiming for linear scale right? I mean, we know things are imprecise, but in an ideal world they would be perfectly linear? It would be wrong for a team to say "We believe that an 8 is 3 times larger than a 5" for example?
– John
1 hour ago
add a comment |
up vote
1
down vote
Perhaps a more accurate way to put it would be that story point estimates are imprecise. If you have a 5 and a 3, that may or may not be the same size as an 8.
To make this less confusing, let's start with a non-numeric scale like T-Shirt sizes. XS, S, M, L, XL and so on. We can agree pretty easily that a small and a medium t-shirt do not get you a large t-shirt. Yet, a large is bigger than a medium and a lot bigger than a small, and generally smaller than an XL. Not always, of course. We all know that one company that we have to buy a different size in. User stories are the same way. It's possible I have a M that is actually bigger than some L, but this is the exception, so I can normally assume that a L is one step bigger than an M.
OK, now let's do this: XS-1, S-3, M-5, L-8, XL-13. Now, all of the same rules apply. It is possible in some edge cases that a 5 is actually bigger than some 8, but generally speaking an 8 is one step bigger than a 5.
Then there is the topic of velocity. Because the relationship between the sizes is generally consistent, we can add the sizes together and if we work at a consistent pace we will have a fairly consistent total. It won't be perfect - maybe 45 - 52, but that is consistent enough to be useful for planning. If you have 35 points in the sprint, it is probably too little in this case and 60 is almost certainly too much. This is also why most forecasts are a range, not a precise measurement.
OK. I think I understand. But in our mental-models we should be aiming for linear scale right? I mean, we know things are imprecise, but in an ideal world they would be perfectly linear? It would be wrong for a team to say "We believe that an 8 is 3 times larger than a 5" for example?
– John
1 hour ago
add a comment |
up vote
1
down vote
up vote
1
down vote
Perhaps a more accurate way to put it would be that story point estimates are imprecise. If you have a 5 and a 3, that may or may not be the same size as an 8.
To make this less confusing, let's start with a non-numeric scale like T-Shirt sizes. XS, S, M, L, XL and so on. We can agree pretty easily that a small and a medium t-shirt do not get you a large t-shirt. Yet, a large is bigger than a medium and a lot bigger than a small, and generally smaller than an XL. Not always, of course. We all know that one company that we have to buy a different size in. User stories are the same way. It's possible I have a M that is actually bigger than some L, but this is the exception, so I can normally assume that a L is one step bigger than an M.
OK, now let's do this: XS-1, S-3, M-5, L-8, XL-13. Now, all of the same rules apply. It is possible in some edge cases that a 5 is actually bigger than some 8, but generally speaking an 8 is one step bigger than a 5.
Then there is the topic of velocity. Because the relationship between the sizes is generally consistent, we can add the sizes together and if we work at a consistent pace we will have a fairly consistent total. It won't be perfect - maybe 45 - 52, but that is consistent enough to be useful for planning. If you have 35 points in the sprint, it is probably too little in this case and 60 is almost certainly too much. This is also why most forecasts are a range, not a precise measurement.
Perhaps a more accurate way to put it would be that story point estimates are imprecise. If you have a 5 and a 3, that may or may not be the same size as an 8.
To make this less confusing, let's start with a non-numeric scale like T-Shirt sizes. XS, S, M, L, XL and so on. We can agree pretty easily that a small and a medium t-shirt do not get you a large t-shirt. Yet, a large is bigger than a medium and a lot bigger than a small, and generally smaller than an XL. Not always, of course. We all know that one company that we have to buy a different size in. User stories are the same way. It's possible I have a M that is actually bigger than some L, but this is the exception, so I can normally assume that a L is one step bigger than an M.
OK, now let's do this: XS-1, S-3, M-5, L-8, XL-13. Now, all of the same rules apply. It is possible in some edge cases that a 5 is actually bigger than some 8, but generally speaking an 8 is one step bigger than a 5.
Then there is the topic of velocity. Because the relationship between the sizes is generally consistent, we can add the sizes together and if we work at a consistent pace we will have a fairly consistent total. It won't be perfect - maybe 45 - 52, but that is consistent enough to be useful for planning. If you have 35 points in the sprint, it is probably too little in this case and 60 is almost certainly too much. This is also why most forecasts are a range, not a precise measurement.
answered 1 hour ago
Daniel
7,4352723
7,4352723
OK. I think I understand. But in our mental-models we should be aiming for linear scale right? I mean, we know things are imprecise, but in an ideal world they would be perfectly linear? It would be wrong for a team to say "We believe that an 8 is 3 times larger than a 5" for example?
– John
1 hour ago
add a comment |
OK. I think I understand. But in our mental-models we should be aiming for linear scale right? I mean, we know things are imprecise, but in an ideal world they would be perfectly linear? It would be wrong for a team to say "We believe that an 8 is 3 times larger than a 5" for example?
– John
1 hour ago
OK. I think I understand. But in our mental-models we should be aiming for linear scale right? I mean, we know things are imprecise, but in an ideal world they would be perfectly linear? It would be wrong for a team to say "We believe that an 8 is 3 times larger than a 5" for example?
– John
1 hour ago
OK. I think I understand. But in our mental-models we should be aiming for linear scale right? I mean, we know things are imprecise, but in an ideal world they would be perfectly linear? It would be wrong for a team to say "We believe that an 8 is 3 times larger than a 5" for example?
– John
1 hour ago
add a comment |
John is a new contributor. Be nice, and check out our Code of Conduct.
John is a new contributor. Be nice, and check out our Code of Conduct.
John is a new contributor. Be nice, and check out our Code of Conduct.
John is a new contributor. Be nice, and check out our Code of Conduct.
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I would recommend that you read Mike Cohn's book on User Stories: mountaingoatsoftware.com/books/user-stories-applied this will give you a good understanding of what user stories and story points represent.
– user32613
1 hour ago