How can story points be “non linear” in relative size











up vote
3
down vote

favorite












I've read in several places that story points are not necessarily linear.



i.e., an "8 point" task is not the same as two 4 point tasks and so on.



I totally get the argument about these being an indication of complexity rather than time taken.



But if they're not a linear scale, then how can you do arithmetic on them? If an 8 story point takes, say, 3 times longer than 2 x 4 story points, then how do burndown charts work from an arithmetic point of view?



If our velocity is, say, 30 a sprint then this means we could do 30 x 1 story point features. But these might be, 30 half an hour jobs. Equally if it was 2 x 15 story point features, these are probably monster tasks which seems equally unlikely.



Perhaps I am wrong in my assertion that they are non-linear?



Or can anyone explain this to me?



Thanks!









share







New contributor




John is a new contributor to this site. Take care in asking for clarification, commenting, and answering.
Check out our Code of Conduct.




















  • I would recommend that you read Mike Cohn's book on User Stories: mountaingoatsoftware.com/books/user-stories-applied this will give you a good understanding of what user stories and story points represent.
    – user32613
    1 hour ago

















up vote
3
down vote

favorite












I've read in several places that story points are not necessarily linear.



i.e., an "8 point" task is not the same as two 4 point tasks and so on.



I totally get the argument about these being an indication of complexity rather than time taken.



But if they're not a linear scale, then how can you do arithmetic on them? If an 8 story point takes, say, 3 times longer than 2 x 4 story points, then how do burndown charts work from an arithmetic point of view?



If our velocity is, say, 30 a sprint then this means we could do 30 x 1 story point features. But these might be, 30 half an hour jobs. Equally if it was 2 x 15 story point features, these are probably monster tasks which seems equally unlikely.



Perhaps I am wrong in my assertion that they are non-linear?



Or can anyone explain this to me?



Thanks!









share







New contributor




John is a new contributor to this site. Take care in asking for clarification, commenting, and answering.
Check out our Code of Conduct.




















  • I would recommend that you read Mike Cohn's book on User Stories: mountaingoatsoftware.com/books/user-stories-applied this will give you a good understanding of what user stories and story points represent.
    – user32613
    1 hour ago















up vote
3
down vote

favorite









up vote
3
down vote

favorite











I've read in several places that story points are not necessarily linear.



i.e., an "8 point" task is not the same as two 4 point tasks and so on.



I totally get the argument about these being an indication of complexity rather than time taken.



But if they're not a linear scale, then how can you do arithmetic on them? If an 8 story point takes, say, 3 times longer than 2 x 4 story points, then how do burndown charts work from an arithmetic point of view?



If our velocity is, say, 30 a sprint then this means we could do 30 x 1 story point features. But these might be, 30 half an hour jobs. Equally if it was 2 x 15 story point features, these are probably monster tasks which seems equally unlikely.



Perhaps I am wrong in my assertion that they are non-linear?



Or can anyone explain this to me?



Thanks!









share







New contributor




John is a new contributor to this site. Take care in asking for clarification, commenting, and answering.
Check out our Code of Conduct.











I've read in several places that story points are not necessarily linear.



i.e., an "8 point" task is not the same as two 4 point tasks and so on.



I totally get the argument about these being an indication of complexity rather than time taken.



But if they're not a linear scale, then how can you do arithmetic on them? If an 8 story point takes, say, 3 times longer than 2 x 4 story points, then how do burndown charts work from an arithmetic point of view?



If our velocity is, say, 30 a sprint then this means we could do 30 x 1 story point features. But these might be, 30 half an hour jobs. Equally if it was 2 x 15 story point features, these are probably monster tasks which seems equally unlikely.



Perhaps I am wrong in my assertion that they are non-linear?



Or can anyone explain this to me?



Thanks!







scrum





share







New contributor




John is a new contributor to this site. Take care in asking for clarification, commenting, and answering.
Check out our Code of Conduct.










share







New contributor




John is a new contributor to this site. Take care in asking for clarification, commenting, and answering.
Check out our Code of Conduct.








share



share






New contributor




John is a new contributor to this site. Take care in asking for clarification, commenting, and answering.
Check out our Code of Conduct.









asked 3 hours ago









John

1162




1162




New contributor




John is a new contributor to this site. Take care in asking for clarification, commenting, and answering.
Check out our Code of Conduct.





New contributor





John is a new contributor to this site. Take care in asking for clarification, commenting, and answering.
Check out our Code of Conduct.






John is a new contributor to this site. Take care in asking for clarification, commenting, and answering.
Check out our Code of Conduct.












  • I would recommend that you read Mike Cohn's book on User Stories: mountaingoatsoftware.com/books/user-stories-applied this will give you a good understanding of what user stories and story points represent.
    – user32613
    1 hour ago




















  • I would recommend that you read Mike Cohn's book on User Stories: mountaingoatsoftware.com/books/user-stories-applied this will give you a good understanding of what user stories and story points represent.
    – user32613
    1 hour ago


















I would recommend that you read Mike Cohn's book on User Stories: mountaingoatsoftware.com/books/user-stories-applied this will give you a good understanding of what user stories and story points represent.
– user32613
1 hour ago






I would recommend that you read Mike Cohn's book on User Stories: mountaingoatsoftware.com/books/user-stories-applied this will give you a good understanding of what user stories and story points represent.
– user32613
1 hour ago












2 Answers
2






active

oldest

votes

















up vote
1
down vote













I have never heard of this. Story points are linear (otherwise it would be impossible to use them as a measure of velocity). However the scale is non-linear, to stop people arguing over whether something is a "5 or a 6" - by using a psuedo-fibonacci sequence, you automatically account for the vagueness of estimation.






share|improve this answer





















  • This makes more sense to me. I think that maybe people have conflated the non-linear choice of numbers (the Fibonacci system) with having the numbers themselves be non linear
    – John
    1 hour ago




















up vote
1
down vote













Perhaps a more accurate way to put it would be that story point estimates are imprecise. If you have a 5 and a 3, that may or may not be the same size as an 8.



To make this less confusing, let's start with a non-numeric scale like T-Shirt sizes. XS, S, M, L, XL and so on. We can agree pretty easily that a small and a medium t-shirt do not get you a large t-shirt. Yet, a large is bigger than a medium and a lot bigger than a small, and generally smaller than an XL. Not always, of course. We all know that one company that we have to buy a different size in. User stories are the same way. It's possible I have a M that is actually bigger than some L, but this is the exception, so I can normally assume that a L is one step bigger than an M.



OK, now let's do this: XS-1, S-3, M-5, L-8, XL-13. Now, all of the same rules apply. It is possible in some edge cases that a 5 is actually bigger than some 8, but generally speaking an 8 is one step bigger than a 5.



Then there is the topic of velocity. Because the relationship between the sizes is generally consistent, we can add the sizes together and if we work at a consistent pace we will have a fairly consistent total. It won't be perfect - maybe 45 - 52, but that is consistent enough to be useful for planning. If you have 35 points in the sprint, it is probably too little in this case and 60 is almost certainly too much. This is also why most forecasts are a range, not a precise measurement.






share|improve this answer





















  • OK. I think I understand. But in our mental-models we should be aiming for linear scale right? I mean, we know things are imprecise, but in an ideal world they would be perfectly linear? It would be wrong for a team to say "We believe that an 8 is 3 times larger than a 5" for example?
    – John
    1 hour ago













Your Answer








StackExchange.ready(function() {
var channelOptions = {
tags: "".split(" "),
id: "208"
};
initTagRenderer("".split(" "), "".split(" "), channelOptions);

StackExchange.using("externalEditor", function() {
// Have to fire editor after snippets, if snippets enabled
if (StackExchange.settings.snippets.snippetsEnabled) {
StackExchange.using("snippets", function() {
createEditor();
});
}
else {
createEditor();
}
});

function createEditor() {
StackExchange.prepareEditor({
heartbeatType: 'answer',
convertImagesToLinks: false,
noModals: true,
showLowRepImageUploadWarning: true,
reputationToPostImages: null,
bindNavPrevention: true,
postfix: "",
imageUploader: {
brandingHtml: "Powered by u003ca class="icon-imgur-white" href="https://imgur.com/"u003eu003c/au003e",
contentPolicyHtml: "User contributions licensed under u003ca href="https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-sa/3.0/"u003ecc by-sa 3.0 with attribution requiredu003c/au003e u003ca href="https://stackoverflow.com/legal/content-policy"u003e(content policy)u003c/au003e",
allowUrls: true
},
noCode: true, onDemand: true,
discardSelector: ".discard-answer"
,immediatelyShowMarkdownHelp:true
});


}
});






John is a new contributor. Be nice, and check out our Code of Conduct.










draft saved

draft discarded


















StackExchange.ready(
function () {
StackExchange.openid.initPostLogin('.new-post-login', 'https%3a%2f%2fpm.stackexchange.com%2fquestions%2f25416%2fhow-can-story-points-be-non-linear-in-relative-size%23new-answer', 'question_page');
}
);

Post as a guest















Required, but never shown

























2 Answers
2






active

oldest

votes








2 Answers
2






active

oldest

votes









active

oldest

votes






active

oldest

votes








up vote
1
down vote













I have never heard of this. Story points are linear (otherwise it would be impossible to use them as a measure of velocity). However the scale is non-linear, to stop people arguing over whether something is a "5 or a 6" - by using a psuedo-fibonacci sequence, you automatically account for the vagueness of estimation.






share|improve this answer





















  • This makes more sense to me. I think that maybe people have conflated the non-linear choice of numbers (the Fibonacci system) with having the numbers themselves be non linear
    – John
    1 hour ago

















up vote
1
down vote













I have never heard of this. Story points are linear (otherwise it would be impossible to use them as a measure of velocity). However the scale is non-linear, to stop people arguing over whether something is a "5 or a 6" - by using a psuedo-fibonacci sequence, you automatically account for the vagueness of estimation.






share|improve this answer





















  • This makes more sense to me. I think that maybe people have conflated the non-linear choice of numbers (the Fibonacci system) with having the numbers themselves be non linear
    – John
    1 hour ago















up vote
1
down vote










up vote
1
down vote









I have never heard of this. Story points are linear (otherwise it would be impossible to use them as a measure of velocity). However the scale is non-linear, to stop people arguing over whether something is a "5 or a 6" - by using a psuedo-fibonacci sequence, you automatically account for the vagueness of estimation.






share|improve this answer












I have never heard of this. Story points are linear (otherwise it would be impossible to use them as a measure of velocity). However the scale is non-linear, to stop people arguing over whether something is a "5 or a 6" - by using a psuedo-fibonacci sequence, you automatically account for the vagueness of estimation.







share|improve this answer












share|improve this answer



share|improve this answer










answered 2 hours ago









Baracus

23514




23514












  • This makes more sense to me. I think that maybe people have conflated the non-linear choice of numbers (the Fibonacci system) with having the numbers themselves be non linear
    – John
    1 hour ago




















  • This makes more sense to me. I think that maybe people have conflated the non-linear choice of numbers (the Fibonacci system) with having the numbers themselves be non linear
    – John
    1 hour ago


















This makes more sense to me. I think that maybe people have conflated the non-linear choice of numbers (the Fibonacci system) with having the numbers themselves be non linear
– John
1 hour ago






This makes more sense to me. I think that maybe people have conflated the non-linear choice of numbers (the Fibonacci system) with having the numbers themselves be non linear
– John
1 hour ago












up vote
1
down vote













Perhaps a more accurate way to put it would be that story point estimates are imprecise. If you have a 5 and a 3, that may or may not be the same size as an 8.



To make this less confusing, let's start with a non-numeric scale like T-Shirt sizes. XS, S, M, L, XL and so on. We can agree pretty easily that a small and a medium t-shirt do not get you a large t-shirt. Yet, a large is bigger than a medium and a lot bigger than a small, and generally smaller than an XL. Not always, of course. We all know that one company that we have to buy a different size in. User stories are the same way. It's possible I have a M that is actually bigger than some L, but this is the exception, so I can normally assume that a L is one step bigger than an M.



OK, now let's do this: XS-1, S-3, M-5, L-8, XL-13. Now, all of the same rules apply. It is possible in some edge cases that a 5 is actually bigger than some 8, but generally speaking an 8 is one step bigger than a 5.



Then there is the topic of velocity. Because the relationship between the sizes is generally consistent, we can add the sizes together and if we work at a consistent pace we will have a fairly consistent total. It won't be perfect - maybe 45 - 52, but that is consistent enough to be useful for planning. If you have 35 points in the sprint, it is probably too little in this case and 60 is almost certainly too much. This is also why most forecasts are a range, not a precise measurement.






share|improve this answer





















  • OK. I think I understand. But in our mental-models we should be aiming for linear scale right? I mean, we know things are imprecise, but in an ideal world they would be perfectly linear? It would be wrong for a team to say "We believe that an 8 is 3 times larger than a 5" for example?
    – John
    1 hour ago

















up vote
1
down vote













Perhaps a more accurate way to put it would be that story point estimates are imprecise. If you have a 5 and a 3, that may or may not be the same size as an 8.



To make this less confusing, let's start with a non-numeric scale like T-Shirt sizes. XS, S, M, L, XL and so on. We can agree pretty easily that a small and a medium t-shirt do not get you a large t-shirt. Yet, a large is bigger than a medium and a lot bigger than a small, and generally smaller than an XL. Not always, of course. We all know that one company that we have to buy a different size in. User stories are the same way. It's possible I have a M that is actually bigger than some L, but this is the exception, so I can normally assume that a L is one step bigger than an M.



OK, now let's do this: XS-1, S-3, M-5, L-8, XL-13. Now, all of the same rules apply. It is possible in some edge cases that a 5 is actually bigger than some 8, but generally speaking an 8 is one step bigger than a 5.



Then there is the topic of velocity. Because the relationship between the sizes is generally consistent, we can add the sizes together and if we work at a consistent pace we will have a fairly consistent total. It won't be perfect - maybe 45 - 52, but that is consistent enough to be useful for planning. If you have 35 points in the sprint, it is probably too little in this case and 60 is almost certainly too much. This is also why most forecasts are a range, not a precise measurement.






share|improve this answer





















  • OK. I think I understand. But in our mental-models we should be aiming for linear scale right? I mean, we know things are imprecise, but in an ideal world they would be perfectly linear? It would be wrong for a team to say "We believe that an 8 is 3 times larger than a 5" for example?
    – John
    1 hour ago















up vote
1
down vote










up vote
1
down vote









Perhaps a more accurate way to put it would be that story point estimates are imprecise. If you have a 5 and a 3, that may or may not be the same size as an 8.



To make this less confusing, let's start with a non-numeric scale like T-Shirt sizes. XS, S, M, L, XL and so on. We can agree pretty easily that a small and a medium t-shirt do not get you a large t-shirt. Yet, a large is bigger than a medium and a lot bigger than a small, and generally smaller than an XL. Not always, of course. We all know that one company that we have to buy a different size in. User stories are the same way. It's possible I have a M that is actually bigger than some L, but this is the exception, so I can normally assume that a L is one step bigger than an M.



OK, now let's do this: XS-1, S-3, M-5, L-8, XL-13. Now, all of the same rules apply. It is possible in some edge cases that a 5 is actually bigger than some 8, but generally speaking an 8 is one step bigger than a 5.



Then there is the topic of velocity. Because the relationship between the sizes is generally consistent, we can add the sizes together and if we work at a consistent pace we will have a fairly consistent total. It won't be perfect - maybe 45 - 52, but that is consistent enough to be useful for planning. If you have 35 points in the sprint, it is probably too little in this case and 60 is almost certainly too much. This is also why most forecasts are a range, not a precise measurement.






share|improve this answer












Perhaps a more accurate way to put it would be that story point estimates are imprecise. If you have a 5 and a 3, that may or may not be the same size as an 8.



To make this less confusing, let's start with a non-numeric scale like T-Shirt sizes. XS, S, M, L, XL and so on. We can agree pretty easily that a small and a medium t-shirt do not get you a large t-shirt. Yet, a large is bigger than a medium and a lot bigger than a small, and generally smaller than an XL. Not always, of course. We all know that one company that we have to buy a different size in. User stories are the same way. It's possible I have a M that is actually bigger than some L, but this is the exception, so I can normally assume that a L is one step bigger than an M.



OK, now let's do this: XS-1, S-3, M-5, L-8, XL-13. Now, all of the same rules apply. It is possible in some edge cases that a 5 is actually bigger than some 8, but generally speaking an 8 is one step bigger than a 5.



Then there is the topic of velocity. Because the relationship between the sizes is generally consistent, we can add the sizes together and if we work at a consistent pace we will have a fairly consistent total. It won't be perfect - maybe 45 - 52, but that is consistent enough to be useful for planning. If you have 35 points in the sprint, it is probably too little in this case and 60 is almost certainly too much. This is also why most forecasts are a range, not a precise measurement.







share|improve this answer












share|improve this answer



share|improve this answer










answered 1 hour ago









Daniel

7,4352723




7,4352723












  • OK. I think I understand. But in our mental-models we should be aiming for linear scale right? I mean, we know things are imprecise, but in an ideal world they would be perfectly linear? It would be wrong for a team to say "We believe that an 8 is 3 times larger than a 5" for example?
    – John
    1 hour ago




















  • OK. I think I understand. But in our mental-models we should be aiming for linear scale right? I mean, we know things are imprecise, but in an ideal world they would be perfectly linear? It would be wrong for a team to say "We believe that an 8 is 3 times larger than a 5" for example?
    – John
    1 hour ago


















OK. I think I understand. But in our mental-models we should be aiming for linear scale right? I mean, we know things are imprecise, but in an ideal world they would be perfectly linear? It would be wrong for a team to say "We believe that an 8 is 3 times larger than a 5" for example?
– John
1 hour ago






OK. I think I understand. But in our mental-models we should be aiming for linear scale right? I mean, we know things are imprecise, but in an ideal world they would be perfectly linear? It would be wrong for a team to say "We believe that an 8 is 3 times larger than a 5" for example?
– John
1 hour ago












John is a new contributor. Be nice, and check out our Code of Conduct.










draft saved

draft discarded


















John is a new contributor. Be nice, and check out our Code of Conduct.













John is a new contributor. Be nice, and check out our Code of Conduct.












John is a new contributor. Be nice, and check out our Code of Conduct.
















Thanks for contributing an answer to Project Management Stack Exchange!


  • Please be sure to answer the question. Provide details and share your research!

But avoid



  • Asking for help, clarification, or responding to other answers.

  • Making statements based on opinion; back them up with references or personal experience.


To learn more, see our tips on writing great answers.





Some of your past answers have not been well-received, and you're in danger of being blocked from answering.


Please pay close attention to the following guidance:


  • Please be sure to answer the question. Provide details and share your research!

But avoid



  • Asking for help, clarification, or responding to other answers.

  • Making statements based on opinion; back them up with references or personal experience.


To learn more, see our tips on writing great answers.




draft saved


draft discarded














StackExchange.ready(
function () {
StackExchange.openid.initPostLogin('.new-post-login', 'https%3a%2f%2fpm.stackexchange.com%2fquestions%2f25416%2fhow-can-story-points-be-non-linear-in-relative-size%23new-answer', 'question_page');
}
);

Post as a guest















Required, but never shown





















































Required, but never shown














Required, but never shown












Required, but never shown







Required, but never shown

































Required, but never shown














Required, but never shown












Required, but never shown







Required, but never shown







Popular posts from this blog

What visual should I use to simply compare current year value vs last year in Power BI desktop

Alexandru Averescu

Trompette piccolo