Have spelling reformers ever proposed rewriting “-ti-” as “-zi-” when it is pronounced that way?











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The pronunciation of words spelled with "-ti-" in German seems to be a little complicated. I read in a book that "-ti-" is pronounced as "-zi-" (I believe only when a vowel follows) in words like Aktie or Patient, but that words from French such as Aristocratie may have stressed /tiː/ instead.



It seems to me that it would be simpler to just use spellings like Akzie and Pazient instead. That kind of use of Z has precedent in some other languages, such as Italian ("paziente"). I know that "ce" and "ci" in Latin-based words are often replaced with "ze" and "zi" respectively in German, and I am wondering why the use of the letter Z did not also become usual to represent the same sound in words that have "ti" in Latin. I wonder whether the spelling "ti" has been kept out of some concern that using "zi" would obscure the etymological distinction between words that had -ci- and -ti- in Latin. Did any scholars or spelling reformers ever comment on this topic?










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  • 3




    This has actually happened to some words: de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Differentialrechnung
    – Carsten S
    1 hour ago















up vote
4
down vote

favorite
1












The pronunciation of words spelled with "-ti-" in German seems to be a little complicated. I read in a book that "-ti-" is pronounced as "-zi-" (I believe only when a vowel follows) in words like Aktie or Patient, but that words from French such as Aristocratie may have stressed /tiː/ instead.



It seems to me that it would be simpler to just use spellings like Akzie and Pazient instead. That kind of use of Z has precedent in some other languages, such as Italian ("paziente"). I know that "ce" and "ci" in Latin-based words are often replaced with "ze" and "zi" respectively in German, and I am wondering why the use of the letter Z did not also become usual to represent the same sound in words that have "ti" in Latin. I wonder whether the spelling "ti" has been kept out of some concern that using "zi" would obscure the etymological distinction between words that had -ci- and -ti- in Latin. Did any scholars or spelling reformers ever comment on this topic?










share|improve this question


















  • 3




    This has actually happened to some words: de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Differentialrechnung
    – Carsten S
    1 hour ago













up vote
4
down vote

favorite
1









up vote
4
down vote

favorite
1






1





The pronunciation of words spelled with "-ti-" in German seems to be a little complicated. I read in a book that "-ti-" is pronounced as "-zi-" (I believe only when a vowel follows) in words like Aktie or Patient, but that words from French such as Aristocratie may have stressed /tiː/ instead.



It seems to me that it would be simpler to just use spellings like Akzie and Pazient instead. That kind of use of Z has precedent in some other languages, such as Italian ("paziente"). I know that "ce" and "ci" in Latin-based words are often replaced with "ze" and "zi" respectively in German, and I am wondering why the use of the letter Z did not also become usual to represent the same sound in words that have "ti" in Latin. I wonder whether the spelling "ti" has been kept out of some concern that using "zi" would obscure the etymological distinction between words that had -ci- and -ti- in Latin. Did any scholars or spelling reformers ever comment on this topic?










share|improve this question













The pronunciation of words spelled with "-ti-" in German seems to be a little complicated. I read in a book that "-ti-" is pronounced as "-zi-" (I believe only when a vowel follows) in words like Aktie or Patient, but that words from French such as Aristocratie may have stressed /tiː/ instead.



It seems to me that it would be simpler to just use spellings like Akzie and Pazient instead. That kind of use of Z has precedent in some other languages, such as Italian ("paziente"). I know that "ce" and "ci" in Latin-based words are often replaced with "ze" and "zi" respectively in German, and I am wondering why the use of the letter Z did not also become usual to represent the same sound in words that have "ti" in Latin. I wonder whether the spelling "ti" has been kept out of some concern that using "zi" would obscure the etymological distinction between words that had -ci- and -ti- in Latin. Did any scholars or spelling reformers ever comment on this topic?







spelling reformed-orthography






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asked 2 hours ago









sumelic

1646




1646








  • 3




    This has actually happened to some words: de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Differentialrechnung
    – Carsten S
    1 hour ago














  • 3




    This has actually happened to some words: de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Differentialrechnung
    – Carsten S
    1 hour ago








3




3




This has actually happened to some words: de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Differentialrechnung
– Carsten S
1 hour ago




This has actually happened to some words: de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Differentialrechnung
– Carsten S
1 hour ago










1 Answer
1






active

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up vote
6
down vote













Yes. That is actually a significant part of one of the recent spelling reforms:




Es werden neue Varianten eingeführt: Differenzial, Potenzial, potenziell, substanziell, parallel zu den schon eingebürgerten finanziell, tendenziell;



Neuerungen der deutschen Rechtschreibreform von 1996




Whereas previously the 'correct' forms would have been Differential, Potential…



This is just an ongoing process of customs and bureaucratic negotiations, and resulting in always imperfect and inconsistent outcomes.



By the way, while now it is Aktie, in older books you may find Akzie:




enter image description here
Allgemeiner anzeiger und nationalzeitung der Deutschen, 1818






Background:



I'd say that there is no real rhyme nor reason behind it. Reformers as well as opponents argue with 'rules' to apply (if…then), but those rules are then inconsistent as well. So yeah, has to be memorised, Duden has to be bought in a new edition… lather, rinse, repeat in a few years. You know: a camel is just a horse designed by a commission.



A conservative critic of the reform efforts up to 1997 was Theodor Ickler, who wrote a ghastly attack on plans, reformers, contradictions, inconsistencies, idiosyncrasies of the participants, proponents, rules and results in "Die sogenannte Rechtschreibreform – ein Schildbürgerstreich" (PDF). It's a delightful read.



Given the one example from the question and the reforms applied: one change that is apparently unthinkable, despite ample prior art in that regard would be Nazion. Looks like only a 'special' group of people that is currently still seen as a minority really favours such a change. Given the supposed rules that should govern such a decision for change in orthography, there would absolutely no obstacle at all. Politically or historically however…






share|improve this answer























  • Thanks. The inconsistency that you note is interesting: so it's only something that applies to the specific words mentioned in the linked article (Differenzial, Potenzial, potenziell, substanziell)?
    – sumelic
    1 hour ago






  • 1




    @sumelic I'd say that there is no rhyme nor reason behind it. Reformers as well as opponents argue with 'rules' to apply (if…then), but those are then inconsistent as well. So yeah, has to be memorised, Duden has to be bought in a new edition… lather, rinse, repeat in a few years. You know: a camel is just a horse designed by a commission.
    – LangLangC
    1 hour ago








  • 1




    Report by a practitioner: the introduction of "z" spelling for some words with that unlucky reform in the 1990s has confused me totally. Potential/Potenzial... brrr... We anyway have to learn the "face" of a word ("that's how it is spelled"); rules are of no real use in everyday communication, because you cannot think of rules while speaking or writing, you have to know the words in their correct form by heart anyway, so with that "reform" we just got more to learn by heart. In my experients.
    – Christian Geiselmann
    15 mins ago








  • 1




    Thank you for the link to the Ickler article (98 pages, by the way - so, well replacing a full-length movie).
    – Christian Geiselmann
    7 mins ago










  • PS Should have written "experienz".
    – Christian Geiselmann
    6 mins ago











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up vote
6
down vote













Yes. That is actually a significant part of one of the recent spelling reforms:




Es werden neue Varianten eingeführt: Differenzial, Potenzial, potenziell, substanziell, parallel zu den schon eingebürgerten finanziell, tendenziell;



Neuerungen der deutschen Rechtschreibreform von 1996




Whereas previously the 'correct' forms would have been Differential, Potential…



This is just an ongoing process of customs and bureaucratic negotiations, and resulting in always imperfect and inconsistent outcomes.



By the way, while now it is Aktie, in older books you may find Akzie:




enter image description here
Allgemeiner anzeiger und nationalzeitung der Deutschen, 1818






Background:



I'd say that there is no real rhyme nor reason behind it. Reformers as well as opponents argue with 'rules' to apply (if…then), but those rules are then inconsistent as well. So yeah, has to be memorised, Duden has to be bought in a new edition… lather, rinse, repeat in a few years. You know: a camel is just a horse designed by a commission.



A conservative critic of the reform efforts up to 1997 was Theodor Ickler, who wrote a ghastly attack on plans, reformers, contradictions, inconsistencies, idiosyncrasies of the participants, proponents, rules and results in "Die sogenannte Rechtschreibreform – ein Schildbürgerstreich" (PDF). It's a delightful read.



Given the one example from the question and the reforms applied: one change that is apparently unthinkable, despite ample prior art in that regard would be Nazion. Looks like only a 'special' group of people that is currently still seen as a minority really favours such a change. Given the supposed rules that should govern such a decision for change in orthography, there would absolutely no obstacle at all. Politically or historically however…






share|improve this answer























  • Thanks. The inconsistency that you note is interesting: so it's only something that applies to the specific words mentioned in the linked article (Differenzial, Potenzial, potenziell, substanziell)?
    – sumelic
    1 hour ago






  • 1




    @sumelic I'd say that there is no rhyme nor reason behind it. Reformers as well as opponents argue with 'rules' to apply (if…then), but those are then inconsistent as well. So yeah, has to be memorised, Duden has to be bought in a new edition… lather, rinse, repeat in a few years. You know: a camel is just a horse designed by a commission.
    – LangLangC
    1 hour ago








  • 1




    Report by a practitioner: the introduction of "z" spelling for some words with that unlucky reform in the 1990s has confused me totally. Potential/Potenzial... brrr... We anyway have to learn the "face" of a word ("that's how it is spelled"); rules are of no real use in everyday communication, because you cannot think of rules while speaking or writing, you have to know the words in their correct form by heart anyway, so with that "reform" we just got more to learn by heart. In my experients.
    – Christian Geiselmann
    15 mins ago








  • 1




    Thank you for the link to the Ickler article (98 pages, by the way - so, well replacing a full-length movie).
    – Christian Geiselmann
    7 mins ago










  • PS Should have written "experienz".
    – Christian Geiselmann
    6 mins ago















up vote
6
down vote













Yes. That is actually a significant part of one of the recent spelling reforms:




Es werden neue Varianten eingeführt: Differenzial, Potenzial, potenziell, substanziell, parallel zu den schon eingebürgerten finanziell, tendenziell;



Neuerungen der deutschen Rechtschreibreform von 1996




Whereas previously the 'correct' forms would have been Differential, Potential…



This is just an ongoing process of customs and bureaucratic negotiations, and resulting in always imperfect and inconsistent outcomes.



By the way, while now it is Aktie, in older books you may find Akzie:




enter image description here
Allgemeiner anzeiger und nationalzeitung der Deutschen, 1818






Background:



I'd say that there is no real rhyme nor reason behind it. Reformers as well as opponents argue with 'rules' to apply (if…then), but those rules are then inconsistent as well. So yeah, has to be memorised, Duden has to be bought in a new edition… lather, rinse, repeat in a few years. You know: a camel is just a horse designed by a commission.



A conservative critic of the reform efforts up to 1997 was Theodor Ickler, who wrote a ghastly attack on plans, reformers, contradictions, inconsistencies, idiosyncrasies of the participants, proponents, rules and results in "Die sogenannte Rechtschreibreform – ein Schildbürgerstreich" (PDF). It's a delightful read.



Given the one example from the question and the reforms applied: one change that is apparently unthinkable, despite ample prior art in that regard would be Nazion. Looks like only a 'special' group of people that is currently still seen as a minority really favours such a change. Given the supposed rules that should govern such a decision for change in orthography, there would absolutely no obstacle at all. Politically or historically however…






share|improve this answer























  • Thanks. The inconsistency that you note is interesting: so it's only something that applies to the specific words mentioned in the linked article (Differenzial, Potenzial, potenziell, substanziell)?
    – sumelic
    1 hour ago






  • 1




    @sumelic I'd say that there is no rhyme nor reason behind it. Reformers as well as opponents argue with 'rules' to apply (if…then), but those are then inconsistent as well. So yeah, has to be memorised, Duden has to be bought in a new edition… lather, rinse, repeat in a few years. You know: a camel is just a horse designed by a commission.
    – LangLangC
    1 hour ago








  • 1




    Report by a practitioner: the introduction of "z" spelling for some words with that unlucky reform in the 1990s has confused me totally. Potential/Potenzial... brrr... We anyway have to learn the "face" of a word ("that's how it is spelled"); rules are of no real use in everyday communication, because you cannot think of rules while speaking or writing, you have to know the words in their correct form by heart anyway, so with that "reform" we just got more to learn by heart. In my experients.
    – Christian Geiselmann
    15 mins ago








  • 1




    Thank you for the link to the Ickler article (98 pages, by the way - so, well replacing a full-length movie).
    – Christian Geiselmann
    7 mins ago










  • PS Should have written "experienz".
    – Christian Geiselmann
    6 mins ago













up vote
6
down vote










up vote
6
down vote









Yes. That is actually a significant part of one of the recent spelling reforms:




Es werden neue Varianten eingeführt: Differenzial, Potenzial, potenziell, substanziell, parallel zu den schon eingebürgerten finanziell, tendenziell;



Neuerungen der deutschen Rechtschreibreform von 1996




Whereas previously the 'correct' forms would have been Differential, Potential…



This is just an ongoing process of customs and bureaucratic negotiations, and resulting in always imperfect and inconsistent outcomes.



By the way, while now it is Aktie, in older books you may find Akzie:




enter image description here
Allgemeiner anzeiger und nationalzeitung der Deutschen, 1818






Background:



I'd say that there is no real rhyme nor reason behind it. Reformers as well as opponents argue with 'rules' to apply (if…then), but those rules are then inconsistent as well. So yeah, has to be memorised, Duden has to be bought in a new edition… lather, rinse, repeat in a few years. You know: a camel is just a horse designed by a commission.



A conservative critic of the reform efforts up to 1997 was Theodor Ickler, who wrote a ghastly attack on plans, reformers, contradictions, inconsistencies, idiosyncrasies of the participants, proponents, rules and results in "Die sogenannte Rechtschreibreform – ein Schildbürgerstreich" (PDF). It's a delightful read.



Given the one example from the question and the reforms applied: one change that is apparently unthinkable, despite ample prior art in that regard would be Nazion. Looks like only a 'special' group of people that is currently still seen as a minority really favours such a change. Given the supposed rules that should govern such a decision for change in orthography, there would absolutely no obstacle at all. Politically or historically however…






share|improve this answer














Yes. That is actually a significant part of one of the recent spelling reforms:




Es werden neue Varianten eingeführt: Differenzial, Potenzial, potenziell, substanziell, parallel zu den schon eingebürgerten finanziell, tendenziell;



Neuerungen der deutschen Rechtschreibreform von 1996




Whereas previously the 'correct' forms would have been Differential, Potential…



This is just an ongoing process of customs and bureaucratic negotiations, and resulting in always imperfect and inconsistent outcomes.



By the way, while now it is Aktie, in older books you may find Akzie:




enter image description here
Allgemeiner anzeiger und nationalzeitung der Deutschen, 1818






Background:



I'd say that there is no real rhyme nor reason behind it. Reformers as well as opponents argue with 'rules' to apply (if…then), but those rules are then inconsistent as well. So yeah, has to be memorised, Duden has to be bought in a new edition… lather, rinse, repeat in a few years. You know: a camel is just a horse designed by a commission.



A conservative critic of the reform efforts up to 1997 was Theodor Ickler, who wrote a ghastly attack on plans, reformers, contradictions, inconsistencies, idiosyncrasies of the participants, proponents, rules and results in "Die sogenannte Rechtschreibreform – ein Schildbürgerstreich" (PDF). It's a delightful read.



Given the one example from the question and the reforms applied: one change that is apparently unthinkable, despite ample prior art in that regard would be Nazion. Looks like only a 'special' group of people that is currently still seen as a minority really favours such a change. Given the supposed rules that should govern such a decision for change in orthography, there would absolutely no obstacle at all. Politically or historically however…







share|improve this answer














share|improve this answer



share|improve this answer








edited 9 mins ago

























answered 1 hour ago









LangLangC

4,47011037




4,47011037












  • Thanks. The inconsistency that you note is interesting: so it's only something that applies to the specific words mentioned in the linked article (Differenzial, Potenzial, potenziell, substanziell)?
    – sumelic
    1 hour ago






  • 1




    @sumelic I'd say that there is no rhyme nor reason behind it. Reformers as well as opponents argue with 'rules' to apply (if…then), but those are then inconsistent as well. So yeah, has to be memorised, Duden has to be bought in a new edition… lather, rinse, repeat in a few years. You know: a camel is just a horse designed by a commission.
    – LangLangC
    1 hour ago








  • 1




    Report by a practitioner: the introduction of "z" spelling for some words with that unlucky reform in the 1990s has confused me totally. Potential/Potenzial... brrr... We anyway have to learn the "face" of a word ("that's how it is spelled"); rules are of no real use in everyday communication, because you cannot think of rules while speaking or writing, you have to know the words in their correct form by heart anyway, so with that "reform" we just got more to learn by heart. In my experients.
    – Christian Geiselmann
    15 mins ago








  • 1




    Thank you for the link to the Ickler article (98 pages, by the way - so, well replacing a full-length movie).
    – Christian Geiselmann
    7 mins ago










  • PS Should have written "experienz".
    – Christian Geiselmann
    6 mins ago


















  • Thanks. The inconsistency that you note is interesting: so it's only something that applies to the specific words mentioned in the linked article (Differenzial, Potenzial, potenziell, substanziell)?
    – sumelic
    1 hour ago






  • 1




    @sumelic I'd say that there is no rhyme nor reason behind it. Reformers as well as opponents argue with 'rules' to apply (if…then), but those are then inconsistent as well. So yeah, has to be memorised, Duden has to be bought in a new edition… lather, rinse, repeat in a few years. You know: a camel is just a horse designed by a commission.
    – LangLangC
    1 hour ago








  • 1




    Report by a practitioner: the introduction of "z" spelling for some words with that unlucky reform in the 1990s has confused me totally. Potential/Potenzial... brrr... We anyway have to learn the "face" of a word ("that's how it is spelled"); rules are of no real use in everyday communication, because you cannot think of rules while speaking or writing, you have to know the words in their correct form by heart anyway, so with that "reform" we just got more to learn by heart. In my experients.
    – Christian Geiselmann
    15 mins ago








  • 1




    Thank you for the link to the Ickler article (98 pages, by the way - so, well replacing a full-length movie).
    – Christian Geiselmann
    7 mins ago










  • PS Should have written "experienz".
    – Christian Geiselmann
    6 mins ago
















Thanks. The inconsistency that you note is interesting: so it's only something that applies to the specific words mentioned in the linked article (Differenzial, Potenzial, potenziell, substanziell)?
– sumelic
1 hour ago




Thanks. The inconsistency that you note is interesting: so it's only something that applies to the specific words mentioned in the linked article (Differenzial, Potenzial, potenziell, substanziell)?
– sumelic
1 hour ago




1




1




@sumelic I'd say that there is no rhyme nor reason behind it. Reformers as well as opponents argue with 'rules' to apply (if…then), but those are then inconsistent as well. So yeah, has to be memorised, Duden has to be bought in a new edition… lather, rinse, repeat in a few years. You know: a camel is just a horse designed by a commission.
– LangLangC
1 hour ago






@sumelic I'd say that there is no rhyme nor reason behind it. Reformers as well as opponents argue with 'rules' to apply (if…then), but those are then inconsistent as well. So yeah, has to be memorised, Duden has to be bought in a new edition… lather, rinse, repeat in a few years. You know: a camel is just a horse designed by a commission.
– LangLangC
1 hour ago






1




1




Report by a practitioner: the introduction of "z" spelling for some words with that unlucky reform in the 1990s has confused me totally. Potential/Potenzial... brrr... We anyway have to learn the "face" of a word ("that's how it is spelled"); rules are of no real use in everyday communication, because you cannot think of rules while speaking or writing, you have to know the words in their correct form by heart anyway, so with that "reform" we just got more to learn by heart. In my experients.
– Christian Geiselmann
15 mins ago






Report by a practitioner: the introduction of "z" spelling for some words with that unlucky reform in the 1990s has confused me totally. Potential/Potenzial... brrr... We anyway have to learn the "face" of a word ("that's how it is spelled"); rules are of no real use in everyday communication, because you cannot think of rules while speaking or writing, you have to know the words in their correct form by heart anyway, so with that "reform" we just got more to learn by heart. In my experients.
– Christian Geiselmann
15 mins ago






1




1




Thank you for the link to the Ickler article (98 pages, by the way - so, well replacing a full-length movie).
– Christian Geiselmann
7 mins ago




Thank you for the link to the Ickler article (98 pages, by the way - so, well replacing a full-length movie).
– Christian Geiselmann
7 mins ago












PS Should have written "experienz".
– Christian Geiselmann
6 mins ago




PS Should have written "experienz".
– Christian Geiselmann
6 mins ago


















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