Colloquial usage of past tense as future perfect
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I have a Japanese friend who is learning English and recently posed me (a native speaker) a question that I am having trouble answering. The problem revolves around two statements:
I was able to get the photos done before I left today
(A contrived example)
He asked you to detain me until he got here, right?
(From an H.G. Wells work)
We started with the former example, where I pointed out that this sentence implies he has already left. My friend countered with the latter example, where the sentence does not make this implication, and he may not have left yet.
I agree with his statement, and believe that the latter is colloquial, albeit not grammatically correct. However what I am having trouble understanding is why the latter is colloquial and not the former. Both of the sentences look grammatically the same to me (past tense followed by a preposition followed by past tense). I believe that no native English speaker would ever say the former example in a scenario where they have not already left, but I could see some people saying the latter in a scenario where he has not left yet (or where his state is unknown).
Is there a concrete reason why the latter is accepted in this scenario where the former is not?
past-tense future-perfect
asked 1 hour ago
Shirik
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I have a Japanese friend who is learning English and recently posed me (a native speaker) a question that I am having trouble answering. The problem revolves around two statements:
I was able to get the photos done before I left today
(A contrived example)
He asked you to detain me until he got here, right?
(From an H.G. Wells work)
We started with the former example, where I pointed out that this sentence implies he has already left. My friend countered with the latter example, where the sentence does not make this implication, and he may not have left yet.
I agree with his statement, and believe that the latter is colloquial, albeit not grammatically correct. However what I am having trouble understanding is why the latter is colloquial and not the former. Both of the sentences look grammatically the same to me (past tense followed by a preposition followed by past tense). I believe that no native English speaker would ever say the former example in a scenario where they have not already left, but I could see some people saying the latter in a scenario where he has not left yet (or where his state is unknown).
Is there a concrete reason why the latter is accepted in this scenario where the former is not?
past-tense future-perfect
asked 1 hour ago
Shirik
1012
New contributor
Shirik is a new contributor to this site. Take care in asking for clarification, commenting, and answering.
Check out our Code of Conduct.
The past tense until he got here is "licensed" in your context by the principle of "backshifting" reported speech (as with He asked you what your name was). It has no real implications for whether "he" has already left or not - it could be in a context where he won't arrive until a very long time in the future, or where everything happened a very long time ago. Only using "present tense" until he gets here truly restricts the context to "time of speaking (now, reporting what he asked then) is earlier than (future) time of arrival".
– FumbleFingers
1 hour ago
add a comment |
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down vote
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up vote
0
down vote
favorite
I have a Japanese friend who is learning English and recently posed me (a native speaker) a question that I am having trouble answering. The problem revolves around two statements:
I was able to get the photos done before I left today
(A contrived example)
He asked you to detain me until he got here, right?
(From an H.G. Wells work)
We started with the former example, where I pointed out that this sentence implies he has already left. My friend countered with the latter example, where the sentence does not make this implication, and he may not have left yet.
I agree with his statement, and believe that the latter is colloquial, albeit not grammatically correct. However what I am having trouble understanding is why the latter is colloquial and not the former. Both of the sentences look grammatically the same to me (past tense followed by a preposition followed by past tense). I believe that no native English speaker would ever say the former example in a scenario where they have not already left, but I could see some people saying the latter in a scenario where he has not left yet (or where his state is unknown).
Is there a concrete reason why the latter is accepted in this scenario where the former is not?
past-tense future-perfect
asked 1 hour ago
Shirik
1012
New contributor
Shirik is a new contributor to this site. Take care in asking for clarification, commenting, and answering.
Check out our Code of Conduct.
I have a Japanese friend who is learning English and recently posed me (a native speaker) a question that I am having trouble answering. The problem revolves around two statements:
I was able to get the photos done before I left today
(A contrived example)
He asked you to detain me until he got here, right?
(From an H.G. Wells work)
We started with the former example, where I pointed out that this sentence implies he has already left. My friend countered with the latter example, where the sentence does not make this implication, and he may not have left yet.
I agree with his statement, and believe that the latter is colloquial, albeit not grammatically correct. However what I am having trouble understanding is why the latter is colloquial and not the former. Both of the sentences look grammatically the same to me (past tense followed by a preposition followed by past tense). I believe that no native English speaker would ever say the former example in a scenario where they have not already left, but I could see some people saying the latter in a scenario where he has not left yet (or where his state is unknown).
Is there a concrete reason why the latter is accepted in this scenario where the former is not?
past-tense future-perfect
past-tense future-perfect
asked 1 hour ago
Shirik
1012
New contributor
Shirik is a new contributor to this site. Take care in asking for clarification, commenting, and answering.
Check out our Code of Conduct.
asked 1 hour ago
Shirik
1012
New contributor
Shirik is a new contributor to this site. Take care in asking for clarification, commenting, and answering.
Check out our Code of Conduct.
asked 1 hour ago
Shirik
1012
New contributor
Shirik is a new contributor to this site. Take care in asking for clarification, commenting, and answering.
Check out our Code of Conduct.
asked 1 hour ago
Shirik
1012
asked 1 hour ago
Shirik
1012
1012
New contributor
Shirik is a new contributor to this site. Take care in asking for clarification, commenting, and answering.
Check out our Code of Conduct.
New contributor
Shirik is a new contributor to this site. Take care in asking for clarification, commenting, and answering.
Check out our Code of Conduct.
Shirik is a new contributor to this site. Take care in asking for clarification, commenting, and answering.
Check out our Code of Conduct.
The past tense until he got here is "licensed" in your context by the principle of "backshifting" reported speech (as with He asked you what your name was). It has no real implications for whether "he" has already left or not - it could be in a context where he won't arrive until a very long time in the future, or where everything happened a very long time ago. Only using "present tense" until he gets here truly restricts the context to "time of speaking (now, reporting what he asked then) is earlier than (future) time of arrival".
– FumbleFingers
1 hour ago
add a comment |
The past tense until he got here is "licensed" in your context by the principle of "backshifting" reported speech (as with He asked you what your name was). It has no real implications for whether "he" has already left or not - it could be in a context where he won't arrive until a very long time in the future, or where everything happened a very long time ago. Only using "present tense" until he gets here truly restricts the context to "time of speaking (now, reporting what he asked then) is earlier than (future) time of arrival".
– FumbleFingers
1 hour ago
The past tense until he got here is "licensed" in your context by the principle of "backshifting" reported speech (as with He asked you what your name was). It has no real implications for whether "he" has already left or not - it could be in a context where he won't arrive until a very long time in the future, or where everything happened a very long time ago. Only using "present tense" until he gets here truly restricts the context to "time of speaking (now, reporting what he asked then) is earlier than (future) time of arrival".
– FumbleFingers
1 hour ago
The past tense until he got here is "licensed" in your context by the principle of "backshifting" reported speech (as with He asked you what your name was). It has no real implications for whether "he" has already left or not - it could be in a context where he won't arrive until a very long time in the future, or where everything happened a very long time ago. Only using "present tense" until he gets here truly restricts the context to "time of speaking (now, reporting what he asked then) is earlier than (future) time of arrival".
– FumbleFingers
1 hour ago
add a comment |
1 Answer
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The second sentence contains indirect speech with a matrix verb in the past, so the verb get is backshifted to got.
[Incidentally, there is no question of "future perfect" here. The English for what the person presumably said is "until I get here", not "until I shall have got here". The fact that some other language would use a future perfect in this context has no relevance for a discussion of English. ]
answered 55 mins ago
Colin Fine
62.5k167157
add a comment |
1 Answer
1
active
oldest
votes
1 Answer
1
active
oldest
votes
active
oldest
votes
active
oldest
votes
up vote
2
down vote
The second sentence contains indirect speech with a matrix verb in the past, so the verb get is backshifted to got.
[Incidentally, there is no question of "future perfect" here. The English for what the person presumably said is "until I get here", not "until I shall have got here". The fact that some other language would use a future perfect in this context has no relevance for a discussion of English. ]
answered 55 mins ago
Colin Fine
62.5k167157
add a comment |
up vote
2
down vote
The second sentence contains indirect speech with a matrix verb in the past, so the verb get is backshifted to got.
[Incidentally, there is no question of "future perfect" here. The English for what the person presumably said is "until I get here", not "until I shall have got here". The fact that some other language would use a future perfect in this context has no relevance for a discussion of English. ]
answered 55 mins ago
Colin Fine
62.5k167157
add a comment |
up vote
2
down vote
up vote
2
down vote
The second sentence contains indirect speech with a matrix verb in the past, so the verb get is backshifted to got.
[Incidentally, there is no question of "future perfect" here. The English for what the person presumably said is "until I get here", not "until I shall have got here". The fact that some other language would use a future perfect in this context has no relevance for a discussion of English. ]
answered 55 mins ago
Colin Fine
62.5k167157
The second sentence contains indirect speech with a matrix verb in the past, so the verb get is backshifted to got.
[Incidentally, there is no question of "future perfect" here. The English for what the person presumably said is "until I get here", not "until I shall have got here". The fact that some other language would use a future perfect in this context has no relevance for a discussion of English. ]
answered 55 mins ago
Colin Fine
62.5k167157
answered 55 mins ago
Colin Fine
62.5k167157
answered 55 mins ago
Colin Fine
62.5k167157
answered 55 mins ago
Colin Fine
62.5k167157
62.5k167157
add a comment |
add a comment |
Shirik is a new contributor. Be nice, and check out our Code of Conduct.
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The past tense until he got here is "licensed" in your context by the principle of "backshifting" reported speech (as with He asked you what your name was). It has no real implications for whether "he" has already left or not - it could be in a context where he won't arrive until a very long time in the future, or where everything happened a very long time ago. Only using "present tense" until he gets here truly restricts the context to "time of speaking (now, reporting what he asked then) is earlier than (future) time of arrival".
– FumbleFingers
1 hour ago