Speaking three sentences at the same time?
TL;DR - I want my angelic race to have a system of speech where up to three sentences are communicated at the same time.
In my story, angels have the ability to express 3 sentences at the same time. If I were to write this out, it'd be a matter of [Main sentence], [Supertext], and [Subtext] all being in line with one another (like furigana in Japanese in terms of writing, but I know that's not how it works when spoken). These three sentences would be restricted to the same topic, but might be along different expressed ideas with the Main Sentence being the critical information and the Supertext/Subtext adding details to the sentence. For example:
The dog has brown fur.
The dog ran away.
The dog was barking.
In English, we'd simply say "The brown dog ran away while barking."
(And because I know somebody would ask "Why not just use English then?") Alternatively, using a more "high school" example:
Did you see what she was wearing?!
Jenny is such a b-.
She's totally sleeping with Mr. Caulton.
In this example, the person would be expressing three sentences all about how much they dislike "Jenny", but the three thoughts aren't all describing Jenny directly. Aside from making a paragraph saying these things (or a LONG compound sentence), English doesn't really have a way of properly expressing this. In the angelic tongue, this would be nicely condensed, though.
Now, I know asking for details on writing the language would more be a matter for the Conlang SE (maybe), but what I am curious about is this: What would be necessary for not only an angel to say these three sentences at once, but for somebody to be capable of understanding them clearly?
MAKING IT A SINGLE QUESTION: What would be the necessary requirements for this kind of speech to be communicated effectively?
I'll accept whichever answer is the simplest, but most effective. My current process involves manipulation of polyphonic vocalization, but I feel like there has to be a better way. I want my angels to still pass for being aesthetically human. They can't be distinctly alien in appearance to make this work. It needs to be up to 3 separate sentences spoken at the same time, but needs to also allow for only one or only two sentences as well. (Meaning, just because they can speak three sentences at once, that doesn't mean they are physically required to. It should be something they can control.)
To answer questions:
- I need it to be a single mouth if at all possible. If there HAVE to be multiple mouths, I could always give the angels an inherent glamour effect, but would prefer to minimize the amount of magic used to keep them looking human.
- The voices can be somewhat differently pitched, but preferably not in a way where one sounds like Crocodile Dundy and the other like Mickey Mouse (and the third like it's coming straight from the depths of hell). I'd prefer if they were all "normal" voices, even if one is higher pitched and another lower.
creature-design xenobiology mythical-creatures language fantasy-races
|
show 5 more comments
TL;DR - I want my angelic race to have a system of speech where up to three sentences are communicated at the same time.
In my story, angels have the ability to express 3 sentences at the same time. If I were to write this out, it'd be a matter of [Main sentence], [Supertext], and [Subtext] all being in line with one another (like furigana in Japanese in terms of writing, but I know that's not how it works when spoken). These three sentences would be restricted to the same topic, but might be along different expressed ideas with the Main Sentence being the critical information and the Supertext/Subtext adding details to the sentence. For example:
The dog has brown fur.
The dog ran away.
The dog was barking.
In English, we'd simply say "The brown dog ran away while barking."
(And because I know somebody would ask "Why not just use English then?") Alternatively, using a more "high school" example:
Did you see what she was wearing?!
Jenny is such a b-.
She's totally sleeping with Mr. Caulton.
In this example, the person would be expressing three sentences all about how much they dislike "Jenny", but the three thoughts aren't all describing Jenny directly. Aside from making a paragraph saying these things (or a LONG compound sentence), English doesn't really have a way of properly expressing this. In the angelic tongue, this would be nicely condensed, though.
Now, I know asking for details on writing the language would more be a matter for the Conlang SE (maybe), but what I am curious about is this: What would be necessary for not only an angel to say these three sentences at once, but for somebody to be capable of understanding them clearly?
MAKING IT A SINGLE QUESTION: What would be the necessary requirements for this kind of speech to be communicated effectively?
I'll accept whichever answer is the simplest, but most effective. My current process involves manipulation of polyphonic vocalization, but I feel like there has to be a better way. I want my angels to still pass for being aesthetically human. They can't be distinctly alien in appearance to make this work. It needs to be up to 3 separate sentences spoken at the same time, but needs to also allow for only one or only two sentences as well. (Meaning, just because they can speak three sentences at once, that doesn't mean they are physically required to. It should be something they can control.)
To answer questions:
- I need it to be a single mouth if at all possible. If there HAVE to be multiple mouths, I could always give the angels an inherent glamour effect, but would prefer to minimize the amount of magic used to keep them looking human.
- The voices can be somewhat differently pitched, but preferably not in a way where one sounds like Crocodile Dundy and the other like Mickey Mouse (and the third like it's coming straight from the depths of hell). I'd prefer if they were all "normal" voices, even if one is higher pitched and another lower.
creature-design xenobiology mythical-creatures language fantasy-races
Do you know the book "Ambassytown" from China Miéville? Its about aliens speaking with two mouths at the same time. The only way for humans to communicate with them is two use twins trained and bred for this purpose. Each of the twin will do one of the voice.
– Legisey
8 hours ago
Do the voices all have to have the same pitch or can they differ considerably as in this example? (I know this doesn't fulfil the requirements) - youtu.be/NpwvEALD_CY
– chasly from UK
6 hours ago
Updated with an answer to @chaslyfromUK and an acknowledgement of Legisey's comment.
– Sora Tamashii
3 hours ago
I’d recommend looking into sign languages. I was once very confused as to why not having a BSL translation of a written document was an issue until I realised that BSL grammar necessarily includes parallel meaning communication (two hands and face all do different things to express different concepts simultaneously).
– Joe Bloggs
3 hours ago
Also as an aside: I, as a regular human being, can say one thing and communicate a completely different thing to another person through suitable choice of phrasing and intonation. Not sure if that helps you out at all, but it’s worth noting.
– Joe Bloggs
3 hours ago
|
show 5 more comments
TL;DR - I want my angelic race to have a system of speech where up to three sentences are communicated at the same time.
In my story, angels have the ability to express 3 sentences at the same time. If I were to write this out, it'd be a matter of [Main sentence], [Supertext], and [Subtext] all being in line with one another (like furigana in Japanese in terms of writing, but I know that's not how it works when spoken). These three sentences would be restricted to the same topic, but might be along different expressed ideas with the Main Sentence being the critical information and the Supertext/Subtext adding details to the sentence. For example:
The dog has brown fur.
The dog ran away.
The dog was barking.
In English, we'd simply say "The brown dog ran away while barking."
(And because I know somebody would ask "Why not just use English then?") Alternatively, using a more "high school" example:
Did you see what she was wearing?!
Jenny is such a b-.
She's totally sleeping with Mr. Caulton.
In this example, the person would be expressing three sentences all about how much they dislike "Jenny", but the three thoughts aren't all describing Jenny directly. Aside from making a paragraph saying these things (or a LONG compound sentence), English doesn't really have a way of properly expressing this. In the angelic tongue, this would be nicely condensed, though.
Now, I know asking for details on writing the language would more be a matter for the Conlang SE (maybe), but what I am curious about is this: What would be necessary for not only an angel to say these three sentences at once, but for somebody to be capable of understanding them clearly?
MAKING IT A SINGLE QUESTION: What would be the necessary requirements for this kind of speech to be communicated effectively?
I'll accept whichever answer is the simplest, but most effective. My current process involves manipulation of polyphonic vocalization, but I feel like there has to be a better way. I want my angels to still pass for being aesthetically human. They can't be distinctly alien in appearance to make this work. It needs to be up to 3 separate sentences spoken at the same time, but needs to also allow for only one or only two sentences as well. (Meaning, just because they can speak three sentences at once, that doesn't mean they are physically required to. It should be something they can control.)
To answer questions:
- I need it to be a single mouth if at all possible. If there HAVE to be multiple mouths, I could always give the angels an inherent glamour effect, but would prefer to minimize the amount of magic used to keep them looking human.
- The voices can be somewhat differently pitched, but preferably not in a way where one sounds like Crocodile Dundy and the other like Mickey Mouse (and the third like it's coming straight from the depths of hell). I'd prefer if they were all "normal" voices, even if one is higher pitched and another lower.
creature-design xenobiology mythical-creatures language fantasy-races
TL;DR - I want my angelic race to have a system of speech where up to three sentences are communicated at the same time.
In my story, angels have the ability to express 3 sentences at the same time. If I were to write this out, it'd be a matter of [Main sentence], [Supertext], and [Subtext] all being in line with one another (like furigana in Japanese in terms of writing, but I know that's not how it works when spoken). These three sentences would be restricted to the same topic, but might be along different expressed ideas with the Main Sentence being the critical information and the Supertext/Subtext adding details to the sentence. For example:
The dog has brown fur.
The dog ran away.
The dog was barking.
In English, we'd simply say "The brown dog ran away while barking."
(And because I know somebody would ask "Why not just use English then?") Alternatively, using a more "high school" example:
Did you see what she was wearing?!
Jenny is such a b-.
She's totally sleeping with Mr. Caulton.
In this example, the person would be expressing three sentences all about how much they dislike "Jenny", but the three thoughts aren't all describing Jenny directly. Aside from making a paragraph saying these things (or a LONG compound sentence), English doesn't really have a way of properly expressing this. In the angelic tongue, this would be nicely condensed, though.
Now, I know asking for details on writing the language would more be a matter for the Conlang SE (maybe), but what I am curious about is this: What would be necessary for not only an angel to say these three sentences at once, but for somebody to be capable of understanding them clearly?
MAKING IT A SINGLE QUESTION: What would be the necessary requirements for this kind of speech to be communicated effectively?
I'll accept whichever answer is the simplest, but most effective. My current process involves manipulation of polyphonic vocalization, but I feel like there has to be a better way. I want my angels to still pass for being aesthetically human. They can't be distinctly alien in appearance to make this work. It needs to be up to 3 separate sentences spoken at the same time, but needs to also allow for only one or only two sentences as well. (Meaning, just because they can speak three sentences at once, that doesn't mean they are physically required to. It should be something they can control.)
To answer questions:
- I need it to be a single mouth if at all possible. If there HAVE to be multiple mouths, I could always give the angels an inherent glamour effect, but would prefer to minimize the amount of magic used to keep them looking human.
- The voices can be somewhat differently pitched, but preferably not in a way where one sounds like Crocodile Dundy and the other like Mickey Mouse (and the third like it's coming straight from the depths of hell). I'd prefer if they were all "normal" voices, even if one is higher pitched and another lower.
creature-design xenobiology mythical-creatures language fantasy-races
creature-design xenobiology mythical-creatures language fantasy-races
edited 3 hours ago
asked 12 hours ago
Sora Tamashii
1,079124
1,079124
Do you know the book "Ambassytown" from China Miéville? Its about aliens speaking with two mouths at the same time. The only way for humans to communicate with them is two use twins trained and bred for this purpose. Each of the twin will do one of the voice.
– Legisey
8 hours ago
Do the voices all have to have the same pitch or can they differ considerably as in this example? (I know this doesn't fulfil the requirements) - youtu.be/NpwvEALD_CY
– chasly from UK
6 hours ago
Updated with an answer to @chaslyfromUK and an acknowledgement of Legisey's comment.
– Sora Tamashii
3 hours ago
I’d recommend looking into sign languages. I was once very confused as to why not having a BSL translation of a written document was an issue until I realised that BSL grammar necessarily includes parallel meaning communication (two hands and face all do different things to express different concepts simultaneously).
– Joe Bloggs
3 hours ago
Also as an aside: I, as a regular human being, can say one thing and communicate a completely different thing to another person through suitable choice of phrasing and intonation. Not sure if that helps you out at all, but it’s worth noting.
– Joe Bloggs
3 hours ago
|
show 5 more comments
Do you know the book "Ambassytown" from China Miéville? Its about aliens speaking with two mouths at the same time. The only way for humans to communicate with them is two use twins trained and bred for this purpose. Each of the twin will do one of the voice.
– Legisey
8 hours ago
Do the voices all have to have the same pitch or can they differ considerably as in this example? (I know this doesn't fulfil the requirements) - youtu.be/NpwvEALD_CY
– chasly from UK
6 hours ago
Updated with an answer to @chaslyfromUK and an acknowledgement of Legisey's comment.
– Sora Tamashii
3 hours ago
I’d recommend looking into sign languages. I was once very confused as to why not having a BSL translation of a written document was an issue until I realised that BSL grammar necessarily includes parallel meaning communication (two hands and face all do different things to express different concepts simultaneously).
– Joe Bloggs
3 hours ago
Also as an aside: I, as a regular human being, can say one thing and communicate a completely different thing to another person through suitable choice of phrasing and intonation. Not sure if that helps you out at all, but it’s worth noting.
– Joe Bloggs
3 hours ago
Do you know the book "Ambassytown" from China Miéville? Its about aliens speaking with two mouths at the same time. The only way for humans to communicate with them is two use twins trained and bred for this purpose. Each of the twin will do one of the voice.
– Legisey
8 hours ago
Do you know the book "Ambassytown" from China Miéville? Its about aliens speaking with two mouths at the same time. The only way for humans to communicate with them is two use twins trained and bred for this purpose. Each of the twin will do one of the voice.
– Legisey
8 hours ago
Do the voices all have to have the same pitch or can they differ considerably as in this example? (I know this doesn't fulfil the requirements) - youtu.be/NpwvEALD_CY
– chasly from UK
6 hours ago
Do the voices all have to have the same pitch or can they differ considerably as in this example? (I know this doesn't fulfil the requirements) - youtu.be/NpwvEALD_CY
– chasly from UK
6 hours ago
Updated with an answer to @chaslyfromUK and an acknowledgement of Legisey's comment.
– Sora Tamashii
3 hours ago
Updated with an answer to @chaslyfromUK and an acknowledgement of Legisey's comment.
– Sora Tamashii
3 hours ago
I’d recommend looking into sign languages. I was once very confused as to why not having a BSL translation of a written document was an issue until I realised that BSL grammar necessarily includes parallel meaning communication (two hands and face all do different things to express different concepts simultaneously).
– Joe Bloggs
3 hours ago
I’d recommend looking into sign languages. I was once very confused as to why not having a BSL translation of a written document was an issue until I realised that BSL grammar necessarily includes parallel meaning communication (two hands and face all do different things to express different concepts simultaneously).
– Joe Bloggs
3 hours ago
Also as an aside: I, as a regular human being, can say one thing and communicate a completely different thing to another person through suitable choice of phrasing and intonation. Not sure if that helps you out at all, but it’s worth noting.
– Joe Bloggs
3 hours ago
Also as an aside: I, as a regular human being, can say one thing and communicate a completely different thing to another person through suitable choice of phrasing and intonation. Not sure if that helps you out at all, but it’s worth noting.
– Joe Bloggs
3 hours ago
|
show 5 more comments
1 Answer
1
active
oldest
votes
This answer was to an earlier version of the question before I understood what Sora was looking for. Please do not vote for it. It is retained only as a reference. Thanks.
Recognize that you'll have limits. You won't be able to arbitrarily express any three ideas, even if related
What you have to work with falls into several categories.
Spoken Inflection How you express a single word can express additional context. We actually do this already. Even with a simple word like "no," the vocal intonation can express humor, incredulity, definitiveness, alarm, etc. Curiously, Engligh-speaking humans have never codified this behavior to produce more efficient language — but that might be because expressing it in written form (through the use of diacritics) makes the written language much more complex.
Expanded Conjugation and Declination Other languages (e.g., Finnish, which I speak (well, not as well as I did 30 years ago)) use complex conjugation and declination combined with suffixes to substantially modify the base meanings of words. This process would, for example, convert the verb "to jump" to the noun "one who jumps" to the verb "to be one who jumps" to the adjective "of the nature of being one who jumps," etc. Friends and I once tried to calculate the number of legitimate words with unique meanings based on the ways words could be conjugated, declined, and modified with suffixes. We stopped counting at 250,000 and moved on to something else.
Secondary Vocalization Have you ever heard someone speak or sing in two tones at once? I have. It's called polyphonic and could be used to literally carry two levels of meaning simultaneously. For example, if we use only the word "no" as an example and the handful of intonations mentioned above, you could express 4*3=12 possible unique meaning combinations at one time. You could really run with this one, angels being what they are, they could have as many vocalizations as you want. Give them four and you have (per my example) 4*3*2*1 = 24 unique meanings at one time. (That mathmatical progression is called a factorial or n! meanings for every "n" vocalizations.)
Those three examples are purely vocal. If you include non-vocal possibilities such as body language or telepathy, your abilities improve considerably.
Where you have limitations is that, theoretically, none of the examples above can give you infinite expression. In other words, unless divine ability exists, the angles can do something unbelievably amazing, but not miraculously godlike. For most stories, such limitations are usually good things as they make the "superpower" more relatable to the reader.
To clarify, I'm looking for something more along the lines of what would need to be necessary for them to physically do so. They don't need explicitly a human vocal-layout. This is why I was originally looking at polyphonic vocalization, which you also bring up. It has its own limitations though. "For most stories, such limitations are usually good things as they make the "superpower" more relatable to the reader." I agree normally, but I have a reasoning behind why I am doing what I am doing: specifically to alienate angels from the audience, including one of the two main characters.
– Sora Tamashii
11 hours ago
I find it quite interesting that, in order, you actually bring up the means I planned on communicating the fairy, dwarf, and (was trying to find a way of making it work for the) angel languages.
– Sora Tamashii
11 hours ago
What are you asking for? I thought it was ways to express ideas more densly than humans experience. Are you asking for the actual physiology behind doing so? That might be too broad or too POB for us.
– JBH
11 hours ago
"What would be the necessary requirements for [speech in which three sentences are physically being spoken at the same time] to be communicated effectively?" was my stated condensed form of the question. If there was a better way to word it, please suggest an edit so that I can correct the issue. As for your claim on the physiology behind it being too broad or POB: in what way? Anatomically correct X, Y, or Z is no different. Im stating what specific biological feature I want with no further caveats to it. I want the simplest means of doing so as best answer. Please explain broadness/POB-ness?
– Sora Tamashii
11 hours ago
If you choose to take a crack at the physiology, you'll want to be specific about how the vocalization is expressed (e.g., tell us if polyphonic is what you're looking for and how many simultaneous tones you want), then use the creature-design and physiology tags. Be as specific as you can because questions like this are often closed.
– JBH
11 hours ago
|
show 4 more comments
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1 Answer
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This answer was to an earlier version of the question before I understood what Sora was looking for. Please do not vote for it. It is retained only as a reference. Thanks.
Recognize that you'll have limits. You won't be able to arbitrarily express any three ideas, even if related
What you have to work with falls into several categories.
Spoken Inflection How you express a single word can express additional context. We actually do this already. Even with a simple word like "no," the vocal intonation can express humor, incredulity, definitiveness, alarm, etc. Curiously, Engligh-speaking humans have never codified this behavior to produce more efficient language — but that might be because expressing it in written form (through the use of diacritics) makes the written language much more complex.
Expanded Conjugation and Declination Other languages (e.g., Finnish, which I speak (well, not as well as I did 30 years ago)) use complex conjugation and declination combined with suffixes to substantially modify the base meanings of words. This process would, for example, convert the verb "to jump" to the noun "one who jumps" to the verb "to be one who jumps" to the adjective "of the nature of being one who jumps," etc. Friends and I once tried to calculate the number of legitimate words with unique meanings based on the ways words could be conjugated, declined, and modified with suffixes. We stopped counting at 250,000 and moved on to something else.
Secondary Vocalization Have you ever heard someone speak or sing in two tones at once? I have. It's called polyphonic and could be used to literally carry two levels of meaning simultaneously. For example, if we use only the word "no" as an example and the handful of intonations mentioned above, you could express 4*3=12 possible unique meaning combinations at one time. You could really run with this one, angels being what they are, they could have as many vocalizations as you want. Give them four and you have (per my example) 4*3*2*1 = 24 unique meanings at one time. (That mathmatical progression is called a factorial or n! meanings for every "n" vocalizations.)
Those three examples are purely vocal. If you include non-vocal possibilities such as body language or telepathy, your abilities improve considerably.
Where you have limitations is that, theoretically, none of the examples above can give you infinite expression. In other words, unless divine ability exists, the angles can do something unbelievably amazing, but not miraculously godlike. For most stories, such limitations are usually good things as they make the "superpower" more relatable to the reader.
To clarify, I'm looking for something more along the lines of what would need to be necessary for them to physically do so. They don't need explicitly a human vocal-layout. This is why I was originally looking at polyphonic vocalization, which you also bring up. It has its own limitations though. "For most stories, such limitations are usually good things as they make the "superpower" more relatable to the reader." I agree normally, but I have a reasoning behind why I am doing what I am doing: specifically to alienate angels from the audience, including one of the two main characters.
– Sora Tamashii
11 hours ago
I find it quite interesting that, in order, you actually bring up the means I planned on communicating the fairy, dwarf, and (was trying to find a way of making it work for the) angel languages.
– Sora Tamashii
11 hours ago
What are you asking for? I thought it was ways to express ideas more densly than humans experience. Are you asking for the actual physiology behind doing so? That might be too broad or too POB for us.
– JBH
11 hours ago
"What would be the necessary requirements for [speech in which three sentences are physically being spoken at the same time] to be communicated effectively?" was my stated condensed form of the question. If there was a better way to word it, please suggest an edit so that I can correct the issue. As for your claim on the physiology behind it being too broad or POB: in what way? Anatomically correct X, Y, or Z is no different. Im stating what specific biological feature I want with no further caveats to it. I want the simplest means of doing so as best answer. Please explain broadness/POB-ness?
– Sora Tamashii
11 hours ago
If you choose to take a crack at the physiology, you'll want to be specific about how the vocalization is expressed (e.g., tell us if polyphonic is what you're looking for and how many simultaneous tones you want), then use the creature-design and physiology tags. Be as specific as you can because questions like this are often closed.
– JBH
11 hours ago
|
show 4 more comments
This answer was to an earlier version of the question before I understood what Sora was looking for. Please do not vote for it. It is retained only as a reference. Thanks.
Recognize that you'll have limits. You won't be able to arbitrarily express any three ideas, even if related
What you have to work with falls into several categories.
Spoken Inflection How you express a single word can express additional context. We actually do this already. Even with a simple word like "no," the vocal intonation can express humor, incredulity, definitiveness, alarm, etc. Curiously, Engligh-speaking humans have never codified this behavior to produce more efficient language — but that might be because expressing it in written form (through the use of diacritics) makes the written language much more complex.
Expanded Conjugation and Declination Other languages (e.g., Finnish, which I speak (well, not as well as I did 30 years ago)) use complex conjugation and declination combined with suffixes to substantially modify the base meanings of words. This process would, for example, convert the verb "to jump" to the noun "one who jumps" to the verb "to be one who jumps" to the adjective "of the nature of being one who jumps," etc. Friends and I once tried to calculate the number of legitimate words with unique meanings based on the ways words could be conjugated, declined, and modified with suffixes. We stopped counting at 250,000 and moved on to something else.
Secondary Vocalization Have you ever heard someone speak or sing in two tones at once? I have. It's called polyphonic and could be used to literally carry two levels of meaning simultaneously. For example, if we use only the word "no" as an example and the handful of intonations mentioned above, you could express 4*3=12 possible unique meaning combinations at one time. You could really run with this one, angels being what they are, they could have as many vocalizations as you want. Give them four and you have (per my example) 4*3*2*1 = 24 unique meanings at one time. (That mathmatical progression is called a factorial or n! meanings for every "n" vocalizations.)
Those three examples are purely vocal. If you include non-vocal possibilities such as body language or telepathy, your abilities improve considerably.
Where you have limitations is that, theoretically, none of the examples above can give you infinite expression. In other words, unless divine ability exists, the angles can do something unbelievably amazing, but not miraculously godlike. For most stories, such limitations are usually good things as they make the "superpower" more relatable to the reader.
To clarify, I'm looking for something more along the lines of what would need to be necessary for them to physically do so. They don't need explicitly a human vocal-layout. This is why I was originally looking at polyphonic vocalization, which you also bring up. It has its own limitations though. "For most stories, such limitations are usually good things as they make the "superpower" more relatable to the reader." I agree normally, but I have a reasoning behind why I am doing what I am doing: specifically to alienate angels from the audience, including one of the two main characters.
– Sora Tamashii
11 hours ago
I find it quite interesting that, in order, you actually bring up the means I planned on communicating the fairy, dwarf, and (was trying to find a way of making it work for the) angel languages.
– Sora Tamashii
11 hours ago
What are you asking for? I thought it was ways to express ideas more densly than humans experience. Are you asking for the actual physiology behind doing so? That might be too broad or too POB for us.
– JBH
11 hours ago
"What would be the necessary requirements for [speech in which three sentences are physically being spoken at the same time] to be communicated effectively?" was my stated condensed form of the question. If there was a better way to word it, please suggest an edit so that I can correct the issue. As for your claim on the physiology behind it being too broad or POB: in what way? Anatomically correct X, Y, or Z is no different. Im stating what specific biological feature I want with no further caveats to it. I want the simplest means of doing so as best answer. Please explain broadness/POB-ness?
– Sora Tamashii
11 hours ago
If you choose to take a crack at the physiology, you'll want to be specific about how the vocalization is expressed (e.g., tell us if polyphonic is what you're looking for and how many simultaneous tones you want), then use the creature-design and physiology tags. Be as specific as you can because questions like this are often closed.
– JBH
11 hours ago
|
show 4 more comments
This answer was to an earlier version of the question before I understood what Sora was looking for. Please do not vote for it. It is retained only as a reference. Thanks.
Recognize that you'll have limits. You won't be able to arbitrarily express any three ideas, even if related
What you have to work with falls into several categories.
Spoken Inflection How you express a single word can express additional context. We actually do this already. Even with a simple word like "no," the vocal intonation can express humor, incredulity, definitiveness, alarm, etc. Curiously, Engligh-speaking humans have never codified this behavior to produce more efficient language — but that might be because expressing it in written form (through the use of diacritics) makes the written language much more complex.
Expanded Conjugation and Declination Other languages (e.g., Finnish, which I speak (well, not as well as I did 30 years ago)) use complex conjugation and declination combined with suffixes to substantially modify the base meanings of words. This process would, for example, convert the verb "to jump" to the noun "one who jumps" to the verb "to be one who jumps" to the adjective "of the nature of being one who jumps," etc. Friends and I once tried to calculate the number of legitimate words with unique meanings based on the ways words could be conjugated, declined, and modified with suffixes. We stopped counting at 250,000 and moved on to something else.
Secondary Vocalization Have you ever heard someone speak or sing in two tones at once? I have. It's called polyphonic and could be used to literally carry two levels of meaning simultaneously. For example, if we use only the word "no" as an example and the handful of intonations mentioned above, you could express 4*3=12 possible unique meaning combinations at one time. You could really run with this one, angels being what they are, they could have as many vocalizations as you want. Give them four and you have (per my example) 4*3*2*1 = 24 unique meanings at one time. (That mathmatical progression is called a factorial or n! meanings for every "n" vocalizations.)
Those three examples are purely vocal. If you include non-vocal possibilities such as body language or telepathy, your abilities improve considerably.
Where you have limitations is that, theoretically, none of the examples above can give you infinite expression. In other words, unless divine ability exists, the angles can do something unbelievably amazing, but not miraculously godlike. For most stories, such limitations are usually good things as they make the "superpower" more relatable to the reader.
This answer was to an earlier version of the question before I understood what Sora was looking for. Please do not vote for it. It is retained only as a reference. Thanks.
Recognize that you'll have limits. You won't be able to arbitrarily express any three ideas, even if related
What you have to work with falls into several categories.
Spoken Inflection How you express a single word can express additional context. We actually do this already. Even with a simple word like "no," the vocal intonation can express humor, incredulity, definitiveness, alarm, etc. Curiously, Engligh-speaking humans have never codified this behavior to produce more efficient language — but that might be because expressing it in written form (through the use of diacritics) makes the written language much more complex.
Expanded Conjugation and Declination Other languages (e.g., Finnish, which I speak (well, not as well as I did 30 years ago)) use complex conjugation and declination combined with suffixes to substantially modify the base meanings of words. This process would, for example, convert the verb "to jump" to the noun "one who jumps" to the verb "to be one who jumps" to the adjective "of the nature of being one who jumps," etc. Friends and I once tried to calculate the number of legitimate words with unique meanings based on the ways words could be conjugated, declined, and modified with suffixes. We stopped counting at 250,000 and moved on to something else.
Secondary Vocalization Have you ever heard someone speak or sing in two tones at once? I have. It's called polyphonic and could be used to literally carry two levels of meaning simultaneously. For example, if we use only the word "no" as an example and the handful of intonations mentioned above, you could express 4*3=12 possible unique meaning combinations at one time. You could really run with this one, angels being what they are, they could have as many vocalizations as you want. Give them four and you have (per my example) 4*3*2*1 = 24 unique meanings at one time. (That mathmatical progression is called a factorial or n! meanings for every "n" vocalizations.)
Those three examples are purely vocal. If you include non-vocal possibilities such as body language or telepathy, your abilities improve considerably.
Where you have limitations is that, theoretically, none of the examples above can give you infinite expression. In other words, unless divine ability exists, the angles can do something unbelievably amazing, but not miraculously godlike. For most stories, such limitations are usually good things as they make the "superpower" more relatable to the reader.
edited 11 hours ago
answered 12 hours ago
JBH
38.9k586189
38.9k586189
To clarify, I'm looking for something more along the lines of what would need to be necessary for them to physically do so. They don't need explicitly a human vocal-layout. This is why I was originally looking at polyphonic vocalization, which you also bring up. It has its own limitations though. "For most stories, such limitations are usually good things as they make the "superpower" more relatable to the reader." I agree normally, but I have a reasoning behind why I am doing what I am doing: specifically to alienate angels from the audience, including one of the two main characters.
– Sora Tamashii
11 hours ago
I find it quite interesting that, in order, you actually bring up the means I planned on communicating the fairy, dwarf, and (was trying to find a way of making it work for the) angel languages.
– Sora Tamashii
11 hours ago
What are you asking for? I thought it was ways to express ideas more densly than humans experience. Are you asking for the actual physiology behind doing so? That might be too broad or too POB for us.
– JBH
11 hours ago
"What would be the necessary requirements for [speech in which three sentences are physically being spoken at the same time] to be communicated effectively?" was my stated condensed form of the question. If there was a better way to word it, please suggest an edit so that I can correct the issue. As for your claim on the physiology behind it being too broad or POB: in what way? Anatomically correct X, Y, or Z is no different. Im stating what specific biological feature I want with no further caveats to it. I want the simplest means of doing so as best answer. Please explain broadness/POB-ness?
– Sora Tamashii
11 hours ago
If you choose to take a crack at the physiology, you'll want to be specific about how the vocalization is expressed (e.g., tell us if polyphonic is what you're looking for and how many simultaneous tones you want), then use the creature-design and physiology tags. Be as specific as you can because questions like this are often closed.
– JBH
11 hours ago
|
show 4 more comments
To clarify, I'm looking for something more along the lines of what would need to be necessary for them to physically do so. They don't need explicitly a human vocal-layout. This is why I was originally looking at polyphonic vocalization, which you also bring up. It has its own limitations though. "For most stories, such limitations are usually good things as they make the "superpower" more relatable to the reader." I agree normally, but I have a reasoning behind why I am doing what I am doing: specifically to alienate angels from the audience, including one of the two main characters.
– Sora Tamashii
11 hours ago
I find it quite interesting that, in order, you actually bring up the means I planned on communicating the fairy, dwarf, and (was trying to find a way of making it work for the) angel languages.
– Sora Tamashii
11 hours ago
What are you asking for? I thought it was ways to express ideas more densly than humans experience. Are you asking for the actual physiology behind doing so? That might be too broad or too POB for us.
– JBH
11 hours ago
"What would be the necessary requirements for [speech in which three sentences are physically being spoken at the same time] to be communicated effectively?" was my stated condensed form of the question. If there was a better way to word it, please suggest an edit so that I can correct the issue. As for your claim on the physiology behind it being too broad or POB: in what way? Anatomically correct X, Y, or Z is no different. Im stating what specific biological feature I want with no further caveats to it. I want the simplest means of doing so as best answer. Please explain broadness/POB-ness?
– Sora Tamashii
11 hours ago
If you choose to take a crack at the physiology, you'll want to be specific about how the vocalization is expressed (e.g., tell us if polyphonic is what you're looking for and how many simultaneous tones you want), then use the creature-design and physiology tags. Be as specific as you can because questions like this are often closed.
– JBH
11 hours ago
To clarify, I'm looking for something more along the lines of what would need to be necessary for them to physically do so. They don't need explicitly a human vocal-layout. This is why I was originally looking at polyphonic vocalization, which you also bring up. It has its own limitations though. "For most stories, such limitations are usually good things as they make the "superpower" more relatable to the reader." I agree normally, but I have a reasoning behind why I am doing what I am doing: specifically to alienate angels from the audience, including one of the two main characters.
– Sora Tamashii
11 hours ago
To clarify, I'm looking for something more along the lines of what would need to be necessary for them to physically do so. They don't need explicitly a human vocal-layout. This is why I was originally looking at polyphonic vocalization, which you also bring up. It has its own limitations though. "For most stories, such limitations are usually good things as they make the "superpower" more relatable to the reader." I agree normally, but I have a reasoning behind why I am doing what I am doing: specifically to alienate angels from the audience, including one of the two main characters.
– Sora Tamashii
11 hours ago
I find it quite interesting that, in order, you actually bring up the means I planned on communicating the fairy, dwarf, and (was trying to find a way of making it work for the) angel languages.
– Sora Tamashii
11 hours ago
I find it quite interesting that, in order, you actually bring up the means I planned on communicating the fairy, dwarf, and (was trying to find a way of making it work for the) angel languages.
– Sora Tamashii
11 hours ago
What are you asking for? I thought it was ways to express ideas more densly than humans experience. Are you asking for the actual physiology behind doing so? That might be too broad or too POB for us.
– JBH
11 hours ago
What are you asking for? I thought it was ways to express ideas more densly than humans experience. Are you asking for the actual physiology behind doing so? That might be too broad or too POB for us.
– JBH
11 hours ago
"What would be the necessary requirements for [speech in which three sentences are physically being spoken at the same time] to be communicated effectively?" was my stated condensed form of the question. If there was a better way to word it, please suggest an edit so that I can correct the issue. As for your claim on the physiology behind it being too broad or POB: in what way? Anatomically correct X, Y, or Z is no different. Im stating what specific biological feature I want with no further caveats to it. I want the simplest means of doing so as best answer. Please explain broadness/POB-ness?
– Sora Tamashii
11 hours ago
"What would be the necessary requirements for [speech in which three sentences are physically being spoken at the same time] to be communicated effectively?" was my stated condensed form of the question. If there was a better way to word it, please suggest an edit so that I can correct the issue. As for your claim on the physiology behind it being too broad or POB: in what way? Anatomically correct X, Y, or Z is no different. Im stating what specific biological feature I want with no further caveats to it. I want the simplest means of doing so as best answer. Please explain broadness/POB-ness?
– Sora Tamashii
11 hours ago
If you choose to take a crack at the physiology, you'll want to be specific about how the vocalization is expressed (e.g., tell us if polyphonic is what you're looking for and how many simultaneous tones you want), then use the creature-design and physiology tags. Be as specific as you can because questions like this are often closed.
– JBH
11 hours ago
If you choose to take a crack at the physiology, you'll want to be specific about how the vocalization is expressed (e.g., tell us if polyphonic is what you're looking for and how many simultaneous tones you want), then use the creature-design and physiology tags. Be as specific as you can because questions like this are often closed.
– JBH
11 hours ago
|
show 4 more comments
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Do you know the book "Ambassytown" from China Miéville? Its about aliens speaking with two mouths at the same time. The only way for humans to communicate with them is two use twins trained and bred for this purpose. Each of the twin will do one of the voice.
– Legisey
8 hours ago
Do the voices all have to have the same pitch or can they differ considerably as in this example? (I know this doesn't fulfil the requirements) - youtu.be/NpwvEALD_CY
– chasly from UK
6 hours ago
Updated with an answer to @chaslyfromUK and an acknowledgement of Legisey's comment.
– Sora Tamashii
3 hours ago
I’d recommend looking into sign languages. I was once very confused as to why not having a BSL translation of a written document was an issue until I realised that BSL grammar necessarily includes parallel meaning communication (two hands and face all do different things to express different concepts simultaneously).
– Joe Bloggs
3 hours ago
Also as an aside: I, as a regular human being, can say one thing and communicate a completely different thing to another person through suitable choice of phrasing and intonation. Not sure if that helps you out at all, but it’s worth noting.
– Joe Bloggs
3 hours ago