Relation between Undecidable problems and NP-Hard











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enter image description here



I drew these pictures to check whether I comprehended the ideas of P, NP, NP Complete and NP Hard correctly.

And then, I realized that it is not certain where undecidable problems should be placed.

Did I draw the pictures correctly? (Are all the undecidable problems including the halting problem are NP-Hard when P=NP, and some of them are so when P≠NP?)

I asked this to professor, but he said that undecidable problems including the Halting problem are not NP Hard because they are not solvable, which is a contrast to many answers in Stack exchange.



And one more thing, when P≠NP, are there problems which are neither NP nor NP Hard? If so, are they undecidable problems too? (Highlighted with a blue line in the second picture)










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  • For me, i ageee with your teacher. If you can't solve with Turing machine in not polinomial time, you can't prove that problems are in NP (or better in NP hard).
    – theantomc
    2 hours ago












  • I disagree - NP-hardness does not require the set to be decidable. I think the confusion was that NP sets (including NP-complete sets) have to be decidable.
    – sdcvvc
    54 mins ago















up vote
1
down vote

favorite












enter image description here



enter image description here



I drew these pictures to check whether I comprehended the ideas of P, NP, NP Complete and NP Hard correctly.

And then, I realized that it is not certain where undecidable problems should be placed.

Did I draw the pictures correctly? (Are all the undecidable problems including the halting problem are NP-Hard when P=NP, and some of them are so when P≠NP?)

I asked this to professor, but he said that undecidable problems including the Halting problem are not NP Hard because they are not solvable, which is a contrast to many answers in Stack exchange.



And one more thing, when P≠NP, are there problems which are neither NP nor NP Hard? If so, are they undecidable problems too? (Highlighted with a blue line in the second picture)










share|cite|improve this question
























  • For me, i ageee with your teacher. If you can't solve with Turing machine in not polinomial time, you can't prove that problems are in NP (or better in NP hard).
    – theantomc
    2 hours ago












  • I disagree - NP-hardness does not require the set to be decidable. I think the confusion was that NP sets (including NP-complete sets) have to be decidable.
    – sdcvvc
    54 mins ago













up vote
1
down vote

favorite









up vote
1
down vote

favorite











enter image description here



enter image description here



I drew these pictures to check whether I comprehended the ideas of P, NP, NP Complete and NP Hard correctly.

And then, I realized that it is not certain where undecidable problems should be placed.

Did I draw the pictures correctly? (Are all the undecidable problems including the halting problem are NP-Hard when P=NP, and some of them are so when P≠NP?)

I asked this to professor, but he said that undecidable problems including the Halting problem are not NP Hard because they are not solvable, which is a contrast to many answers in Stack exchange.



And one more thing, when P≠NP, are there problems which are neither NP nor NP Hard? If so, are they undecidable problems too? (Highlighted with a blue line in the second picture)










share|cite|improve this question















enter image description here



enter image description here



I drew these pictures to check whether I comprehended the ideas of P, NP, NP Complete and NP Hard correctly.

And then, I realized that it is not certain where undecidable problems should be placed.

Did I draw the pictures correctly? (Are all the undecidable problems including the halting problem are NP-Hard when P=NP, and some of them are so when P≠NP?)

I asked this to professor, but he said that undecidable problems including the Halting problem are not NP Hard because they are not solvable, which is a contrast to many answers in Stack exchange.



And one more thing, when P≠NP, are there problems which are neither NP nor NP Hard? If so, are they undecidable problems too? (Highlighted with a blue line in the second picture)







complexity-theory computability undecidability np-hard






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edited 1 hour ago









Raphael

57.2k23139311




57.2k23139311










asked 4 hours ago









Riddle Aaron

133




133












  • For me, i ageee with your teacher. If you can't solve with Turing machine in not polinomial time, you can't prove that problems are in NP (or better in NP hard).
    – theantomc
    2 hours ago












  • I disagree - NP-hardness does not require the set to be decidable. I think the confusion was that NP sets (including NP-complete sets) have to be decidable.
    – sdcvvc
    54 mins ago


















  • For me, i ageee with your teacher. If you can't solve with Turing machine in not polinomial time, you can't prove that problems are in NP (or better in NP hard).
    – theantomc
    2 hours ago












  • I disagree - NP-hardness does not require the set to be decidable. I think the confusion was that NP sets (including NP-complete sets) have to be decidable.
    – sdcvvc
    54 mins ago
















For me, i ageee with your teacher. If you can't solve with Turing machine in not polinomial time, you can't prove that problems are in NP (or better in NP hard).
– theantomc
2 hours ago






For me, i ageee with your teacher. If you can't solve with Turing machine in not polinomial time, you can't prove that problems are in NP (or better in NP hard).
– theantomc
2 hours ago














I disagree - NP-hardness does not require the set to be decidable. I think the confusion was that NP sets (including NP-complete sets) have to be decidable.
– sdcvvc
54 mins ago




I disagree - NP-hardness does not require the set to be decidable. I think the confusion was that NP sets (including NP-complete sets) have to be decidable.
– sdcvvc
54 mins ago










2 Answers
2






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2
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I believe that this answer by Yuval Filmus all the questions you have asked.




If P=NP then any non-trivial set is NP-hard (other than the empty set and the complete set), so assume P$neq$NP. If $A$ is a set and $f_i$ reduces SAT to $A$ in polytime, then $f_i$ must have infinite range. Otherwise, we can hardcode the relevant values of $f_i$ to get a polytime algorithm for SAT.



We can construct an undecidable problem which is not NP-hard using diagonalization. Let $f_i$ be an enumeration of all polytime reductions whose range is infinite. We construct an undecidable problem $A$ such that no $f_i$ reduces SAT to $A$. We will use $K$ to denote the undecidable set corresponding to the halting problem.



The set $A$ will be defined in stages, starting with a completely undefined set. In stage $i$, we find a string $s$ such that $f_i(s)$ is longer than any string on which $A$ is defined (here we use the fact that the range of $f_i$ is infinite). We define $A$ on $f_i(s)$ so that $s in SAT$ iff $f_i(s) notin A$. After all finite stages, we complete the definition of $A$ for each undefined string $s$ by letting $s in A$ iff $|s| in K$.



By construction, no polytime $f_i$ reduces SAT to $A$, and so $A$ is not NP-hard. On the other hand, $A$ is not decidable since $K$ reduces to $A$: we can decide whether $n in K$ (for $n geq 2$) by taking a majority of three strings of length $n$.




To summarize,




  1. Halting problem is NP-hard.

  2. If $Pne NP$, not all undecidable problems are NP-hard.

  3. If $P = NP$, all non-trivial sets are NP-hard.






share|cite|improve this answer





















  • +1, I'd like to add that point 1 holds under the normal binary encoding of the halting problem; the unary encoding is not NP-hard, unless P=NP.
    – sdcvvc
    55 mins ago










  • "not all undecidable problems are NP-hard" means that there are some undecidable problems are not in NP-hard, and that means P≠NP because if P=NP, all problems are NP-hard. So I think that we do not know whether "not all undecidable problems are NP-hard" before we solve P-NP problem. Am I correct?
    – Riddle Aaron
    40 mins ago










  • @RiddleAaron That sounds right.
    – Alex Smart
    33 mins ago


















up vote
1
down vote













NP-Hard means "at least as hard as the hardest problems in NP"! Hence, all the problems such as halting problem which is not decidable, is in NP-Hard but not in NP. See this page.



enter image description here




There are decision problems that are NP-hard but not NP-complete, for example the halting problem.







share|cite|improve this answer





















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    I believe that this answer by Yuval Filmus all the questions you have asked.




    If P=NP then any non-trivial set is NP-hard (other than the empty set and the complete set), so assume P$neq$NP. If $A$ is a set and $f_i$ reduces SAT to $A$ in polytime, then $f_i$ must have infinite range. Otherwise, we can hardcode the relevant values of $f_i$ to get a polytime algorithm for SAT.



    We can construct an undecidable problem which is not NP-hard using diagonalization. Let $f_i$ be an enumeration of all polytime reductions whose range is infinite. We construct an undecidable problem $A$ such that no $f_i$ reduces SAT to $A$. We will use $K$ to denote the undecidable set corresponding to the halting problem.



    The set $A$ will be defined in stages, starting with a completely undefined set. In stage $i$, we find a string $s$ such that $f_i(s)$ is longer than any string on which $A$ is defined (here we use the fact that the range of $f_i$ is infinite). We define $A$ on $f_i(s)$ so that $s in SAT$ iff $f_i(s) notin A$. After all finite stages, we complete the definition of $A$ for each undefined string $s$ by letting $s in A$ iff $|s| in K$.



    By construction, no polytime $f_i$ reduces SAT to $A$, and so $A$ is not NP-hard. On the other hand, $A$ is not decidable since $K$ reduces to $A$: we can decide whether $n in K$ (for $n geq 2$) by taking a majority of three strings of length $n$.




    To summarize,




    1. Halting problem is NP-hard.

    2. If $Pne NP$, not all undecidable problems are NP-hard.

    3. If $P = NP$, all non-trivial sets are NP-hard.






    share|cite|improve this answer





















    • +1, I'd like to add that point 1 holds under the normal binary encoding of the halting problem; the unary encoding is not NP-hard, unless P=NP.
      – sdcvvc
      55 mins ago










    • "not all undecidable problems are NP-hard" means that there are some undecidable problems are not in NP-hard, and that means P≠NP because if P=NP, all problems are NP-hard. So I think that we do not know whether "not all undecidable problems are NP-hard" before we solve P-NP problem. Am I correct?
      – Riddle Aaron
      40 mins ago










    • @RiddleAaron That sounds right.
      – Alex Smart
      33 mins ago















    up vote
    2
    down vote













    I believe that this answer by Yuval Filmus all the questions you have asked.




    If P=NP then any non-trivial set is NP-hard (other than the empty set and the complete set), so assume P$neq$NP. If $A$ is a set and $f_i$ reduces SAT to $A$ in polytime, then $f_i$ must have infinite range. Otherwise, we can hardcode the relevant values of $f_i$ to get a polytime algorithm for SAT.



    We can construct an undecidable problem which is not NP-hard using diagonalization. Let $f_i$ be an enumeration of all polytime reductions whose range is infinite. We construct an undecidable problem $A$ such that no $f_i$ reduces SAT to $A$. We will use $K$ to denote the undecidable set corresponding to the halting problem.



    The set $A$ will be defined in stages, starting with a completely undefined set. In stage $i$, we find a string $s$ such that $f_i(s)$ is longer than any string on which $A$ is defined (here we use the fact that the range of $f_i$ is infinite). We define $A$ on $f_i(s)$ so that $s in SAT$ iff $f_i(s) notin A$. After all finite stages, we complete the definition of $A$ for each undefined string $s$ by letting $s in A$ iff $|s| in K$.



    By construction, no polytime $f_i$ reduces SAT to $A$, and so $A$ is not NP-hard. On the other hand, $A$ is not decidable since $K$ reduces to $A$: we can decide whether $n in K$ (for $n geq 2$) by taking a majority of three strings of length $n$.




    To summarize,




    1. Halting problem is NP-hard.

    2. If $Pne NP$, not all undecidable problems are NP-hard.

    3. If $P = NP$, all non-trivial sets are NP-hard.






    share|cite|improve this answer





















    • +1, I'd like to add that point 1 holds under the normal binary encoding of the halting problem; the unary encoding is not NP-hard, unless P=NP.
      – sdcvvc
      55 mins ago










    • "not all undecidable problems are NP-hard" means that there are some undecidable problems are not in NP-hard, and that means P≠NP because if P=NP, all problems are NP-hard. So I think that we do not know whether "not all undecidable problems are NP-hard" before we solve P-NP problem. Am I correct?
      – Riddle Aaron
      40 mins ago










    • @RiddleAaron That sounds right.
      – Alex Smart
      33 mins ago













    up vote
    2
    down vote










    up vote
    2
    down vote









    I believe that this answer by Yuval Filmus all the questions you have asked.




    If P=NP then any non-trivial set is NP-hard (other than the empty set and the complete set), so assume P$neq$NP. If $A$ is a set and $f_i$ reduces SAT to $A$ in polytime, then $f_i$ must have infinite range. Otherwise, we can hardcode the relevant values of $f_i$ to get a polytime algorithm for SAT.



    We can construct an undecidable problem which is not NP-hard using diagonalization. Let $f_i$ be an enumeration of all polytime reductions whose range is infinite. We construct an undecidable problem $A$ such that no $f_i$ reduces SAT to $A$. We will use $K$ to denote the undecidable set corresponding to the halting problem.



    The set $A$ will be defined in stages, starting with a completely undefined set. In stage $i$, we find a string $s$ such that $f_i(s)$ is longer than any string on which $A$ is defined (here we use the fact that the range of $f_i$ is infinite). We define $A$ on $f_i(s)$ so that $s in SAT$ iff $f_i(s) notin A$. After all finite stages, we complete the definition of $A$ for each undefined string $s$ by letting $s in A$ iff $|s| in K$.



    By construction, no polytime $f_i$ reduces SAT to $A$, and so $A$ is not NP-hard. On the other hand, $A$ is not decidable since $K$ reduces to $A$: we can decide whether $n in K$ (for $n geq 2$) by taking a majority of three strings of length $n$.




    To summarize,




    1. Halting problem is NP-hard.

    2. If $Pne NP$, not all undecidable problems are NP-hard.

    3. If $P = NP$, all non-trivial sets are NP-hard.






    share|cite|improve this answer












    I believe that this answer by Yuval Filmus all the questions you have asked.




    If P=NP then any non-trivial set is NP-hard (other than the empty set and the complete set), so assume P$neq$NP. If $A$ is a set and $f_i$ reduces SAT to $A$ in polytime, then $f_i$ must have infinite range. Otherwise, we can hardcode the relevant values of $f_i$ to get a polytime algorithm for SAT.



    We can construct an undecidable problem which is not NP-hard using diagonalization. Let $f_i$ be an enumeration of all polytime reductions whose range is infinite. We construct an undecidable problem $A$ such that no $f_i$ reduces SAT to $A$. We will use $K$ to denote the undecidable set corresponding to the halting problem.



    The set $A$ will be defined in stages, starting with a completely undefined set. In stage $i$, we find a string $s$ such that $f_i(s)$ is longer than any string on which $A$ is defined (here we use the fact that the range of $f_i$ is infinite). We define $A$ on $f_i(s)$ so that $s in SAT$ iff $f_i(s) notin A$. After all finite stages, we complete the definition of $A$ for each undefined string $s$ by letting $s in A$ iff $|s| in K$.



    By construction, no polytime $f_i$ reduces SAT to $A$, and so $A$ is not NP-hard. On the other hand, $A$ is not decidable since $K$ reduces to $A$: we can decide whether $n in K$ (for $n geq 2$) by taking a majority of three strings of length $n$.




    To summarize,




    1. Halting problem is NP-hard.

    2. If $Pne NP$, not all undecidable problems are NP-hard.

    3. If $P = NP$, all non-trivial sets are NP-hard.







    share|cite|improve this answer












    share|cite|improve this answer



    share|cite|improve this answer










    answered 1 hour ago









    Alex Smart

    514




    514












    • +1, I'd like to add that point 1 holds under the normal binary encoding of the halting problem; the unary encoding is not NP-hard, unless P=NP.
      – sdcvvc
      55 mins ago










    • "not all undecidable problems are NP-hard" means that there are some undecidable problems are not in NP-hard, and that means P≠NP because if P=NP, all problems are NP-hard. So I think that we do not know whether "not all undecidable problems are NP-hard" before we solve P-NP problem. Am I correct?
      – Riddle Aaron
      40 mins ago










    • @RiddleAaron That sounds right.
      – Alex Smart
      33 mins ago


















    • +1, I'd like to add that point 1 holds under the normal binary encoding of the halting problem; the unary encoding is not NP-hard, unless P=NP.
      – sdcvvc
      55 mins ago










    • "not all undecidable problems are NP-hard" means that there are some undecidable problems are not in NP-hard, and that means P≠NP because if P=NP, all problems are NP-hard. So I think that we do not know whether "not all undecidable problems are NP-hard" before we solve P-NP problem. Am I correct?
      – Riddle Aaron
      40 mins ago










    • @RiddleAaron That sounds right.
      – Alex Smart
      33 mins ago
















    +1, I'd like to add that point 1 holds under the normal binary encoding of the halting problem; the unary encoding is not NP-hard, unless P=NP.
    – sdcvvc
    55 mins ago




    +1, I'd like to add that point 1 holds under the normal binary encoding of the halting problem; the unary encoding is not NP-hard, unless P=NP.
    – sdcvvc
    55 mins ago












    "not all undecidable problems are NP-hard" means that there are some undecidable problems are not in NP-hard, and that means P≠NP because if P=NP, all problems are NP-hard. So I think that we do not know whether "not all undecidable problems are NP-hard" before we solve P-NP problem. Am I correct?
    – Riddle Aaron
    40 mins ago




    "not all undecidable problems are NP-hard" means that there are some undecidable problems are not in NP-hard, and that means P≠NP because if P=NP, all problems are NP-hard. So I think that we do not know whether "not all undecidable problems are NP-hard" before we solve P-NP problem. Am I correct?
    – Riddle Aaron
    40 mins ago












    @RiddleAaron That sounds right.
    – Alex Smart
    33 mins ago




    @RiddleAaron That sounds right.
    – Alex Smart
    33 mins ago










    up vote
    1
    down vote













    NP-Hard means "at least as hard as the hardest problems in NP"! Hence, all the problems such as halting problem which is not decidable, is in NP-Hard but not in NP. See this page.



    enter image description here




    There are decision problems that are NP-hard but not NP-complete, for example the halting problem.







    share|cite|improve this answer

























      up vote
      1
      down vote













      NP-Hard means "at least as hard as the hardest problems in NP"! Hence, all the problems such as halting problem which is not decidable, is in NP-Hard but not in NP. See this page.



      enter image description here




      There are decision problems that are NP-hard but not NP-complete, for example the halting problem.







      share|cite|improve this answer























        up vote
        1
        down vote










        up vote
        1
        down vote









        NP-Hard means "at least as hard as the hardest problems in NP"! Hence, all the problems such as halting problem which is not decidable, is in NP-Hard but not in NP. See this page.



        enter image description here




        There are decision problems that are NP-hard but not NP-complete, for example the halting problem.







        share|cite|improve this answer












        NP-Hard means "at least as hard as the hardest problems in NP"! Hence, all the problems such as halting problem which is not decidable, is in NP-Hard but not in NP. See this page.



        enter image description here




        There are decision problems that are NP-hard but not NP-complete, for example the halting problem.








        share|cite|improve this answer












        share|cite|improve this answer



        share|cite|improve this answer










        answered 2 hours ago









        OmG

        1,233412




        1,233412






























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