When do I tell my players when they're under an NPC's class effects?












11














There's a pretty good chance that my PCs will enter a team-battle tournament soon. One of the characters that they might fight has an ability that would give disadvantage to attack someone other than him.



When do I tell the player that their attack would have disadvantage? For context, to save time, we'll often say, "Three attacks on guy X." Should I stop him after the first one and let him know it's at disadvantage, or after he's committed to attacking?



When do I let my players know their roll will be affected?










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  • 2




    Can you explain why you think you need to tell them that? I think that would help experienced GM's in answering your question.
    – KorvinStarmast
    13 hours ago










  • It seems you are worried about your player metagaming the information. Why do you want to hide the fact that this character has an ability to give disadvantage from your players?
    – Vylix
    13 hours ago






  • 1




    Are you trying to hide the disadvantage until the attack has been made?
    – Vylix
    13 hours ago
















11














There's a pretty good chance that my PCs will enter a team-battle tournament soon. One of the characters that they might fight has an ability that would give disadvantage to attack someone other than him.



When do I tell the player that their attack would have disadvantage? For context, to save time, we'll often say, "Three attacks on guy X." Should I stop him after the first one and let him know it's at disadvantage, or after he's committed to attacking?



When do I let my players know their roll will be affected?










share|improve this question









New contributor




A Joe of the Average Variety is a new contributor to this site. Take care in asking for clarification, commenting, and answering.
Check out our Code of Conduct.
















  • 2




    Can you explain why you think you need to tell them that? I think that would help experienced GM's in answering your question.
    – KorvinStarmast
    13 hours ago










  • It seems you are worried about your player metagaming the information. Why do you want to hide the fact that this character has an ability to give disadvantage from your players?
    – Vylix
    13 hours ago






  • 1




    Are you trying to hide the disadvantage until the attack has been made?
    – Vylix
    13 hours ago














11












11








11







There's a pretty good chance that my PCs will enter a team-battle tournament soon. One of the characters that they might fight has an ability that would give disadvantage to attack someone other than him.



When do I tell the player that their attack would have disadvantage? For context, to save time, we'll often say, "Three attacks on guy X." Should I stop him after the first one and let him know it's at disadvantage, or after he's committed to attacking?



When do I let my players know their roll will be affected?










share|improve this question









New contributor




A Joe of the Average Variety is a new contributor to this site. Take care in asking for clarification, commenting, and answering.
Check out our Code of Conduct.











There's a pretty good chance that my PCs will enter a team-battle tournament soon. One of the characters that they might fight has an ability that would give disadvantage to attack someone other than him.



When do I tell the player that their attack would have disadvantage? For context, to save time, we'll often say, "Three attacks on guy X." Should I stop him after the first one and let him know it's at disadvantage, or after he's committed to attacking?



When do I let my players know their roll will be affected?







dnd-5e gm-techniques metagaming






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A Joe of the Average Variety is a new contributor to this site. Take care in asking for clarification, commenting, and answering.
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share|improve this question









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edited 13 hours ago









V2Blast

19.4k354119




19.4k354119






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asked 13 hours ago









A Joe of the Average Variety

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New contributor





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Check out our Code of Conduct.






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Check out our Code of Conduct.








  • 2




    Can you explain why you think you need to tell them that? I think that would help experienced GM's in answering your question.
    – KorvinStarmast
    13 hours ago










  • It seems you are worried about your player metagaming the information. Why do you want to hide the fact that this character has an ability to give disadvantage from your players?
    – Vylix
    13 hours ago






  • 1




    Are you trying to hide the disadvantage until the attack has been made?
    – Vylix
    13 hours ago














  • 2




    Can you explain why you think you need to tell them that? I think that would help experienced GM's in answering your question.
    – KorvinStarmast
    13 hours ago










  • It seems you are worried about your player metagaming the information. Why do you want to hide the fact that this character has an ability to give disadvantage from your players?
    – Vylix
    13 hours ago






  • 1




    Are you trying to hide the disadvantage until the attack has been made?
    – Vylix
    13 hours ago








2




2




Can you explain why you think you need to tell them that? I think that would help experienced GM's in answering your question.
– KorvinStarmast
13 hours ago




Can you explain why you think you need to tell them that? I think that would help experienced GM's in answering your question.
– KorvinStarmast
13 hours ago












It seems you are worried about your player metagaming the information. Why do you want to hide the fact that this character has an ability to give disadvantage from your players?
– Vylix
13 hours ago




It seems you are worried about your player metagaming the information. Why do you want to hide the fact that this character has an ability to give disadvantage from your players?
– Vylix
13 hours ago




1




1




Are you trying to hide the disadvantage until the attack has been made?
– Vylix
13 hours ago




Are you trying to hide the disadvantage until the attack has been made?
– Vylix
13 hours ago










3 Answers
3






active

oldest

votes


















15














Let them know after the first attack at latest



By the rules, each attack can have a separate target, and don't need to be called out before the first attack. Therefore, your players have the right to switch the target after their first attack for any reason --- the first target may have died, it may have turned out to impose disadvantage, it may have had a damage resistance, or whatever. "Three attacks on [target]" is, unless explicitly ruled otherwise, just a convenience thing and should not be regarded as a mechanical commitment.



"Okay," you might say, "but should I rule it that way then?" My answer is no, you shouldn't. First of all, penalizing your players for using a shorthand is not cool and will feel like antagonizing them for no proper reason. It is a convenience thing and depriving them of that convenience for no reason will not serve any practical purpose.



Likewise, you could rule that regardless of the wording, all attacks made will have to target the same creature, but that reduces the tactical agency the players have (in layman's terms, they have less interesting choices to make) and has the potential to slow down combat encounters significantly. In all fairness, it's more likely to increase metagaming than reduce it, since the players will have to consider eg. whether they want to use their three attacks at a creature that's likely to go down in just one hit.



Finally, one might consider the option of not letting the players know they're rolling at a disadvantage at all (and rolling the second die in secret), but I seriously recommend against this. It will just lead to clumsy and confusing gameplay, put more stress on the GM as they have to remember to roll after player attacks and is very transparently "unusual" to the players. Metagaming shouldn't even be a concern here --- surely the characters, after attempting an attack, should realize that something is making hitting the target more difficult than usual?






share|improve this answer

















  • 2




    That last question in your answer sums it up for me: How would a (say) fighter, who trained his whole life in melee, knowing how to read situations, understand his own body and movements in a fight and all that, not realize "something is off, you keep being distracted by that other guy and you feel like your hits don't connect with the same strength" at the very least. And then once that is out there, players will normally try something else (like attack the distracting guy). Then they would realize exactly what's off
    – Patrice
    2 hours ago



















6














In general, intelligent creatures in D&D5 know when they're under an effect, as long as that effect has perceptible signifiers.



See PH page 204 (which is about magic, but the principle establishes the basic principle): That people under a spell effect don't know about it UNLESS IT HAS A PERCEPTIBLE EFFECT. Which means if it does have such an effect, they should know about it.



This is a core principle of all roleplay, not just D&D -- players should know about stuff their characters would be able to perceive. Yes, I know this is basic, but trust me, I'm going somewhere with this.



This means that while you don't have to tell players explicitly how a "marked"-style ability (which generally signifies that the character in question is positioning themselves in a way that will let them counter-attack if the target attacks anyone except the) works, you are being unfair if you don't give them the basic description that will let them react intelligently.



If you look back at 4th edition (where the "marked" condition originated), the purpose of the "marked" concept (which, no, isn't an explicit condition in 5th edition, but is still present in concept) isn't to let a character -- PC or NPC -- do extra damage. Instead it's to help a character designed to take hits to do their job; to prevent their allies from taking damage by "persuading" foes to attack their higher defenses instead.



This means that if you rule that characters who are targeted by such a defensive ability have no awareness of it, you're letting your monsters (and PCs who take similar abilities) do extra damage, but a the expense of being able to accomplish their role.



So instead, it's better overall to give people descriptions of what's going on that will allow them to make meaningful choices; whether to attack the person who is, say "watching you closely, and seems ready to attack if you take your eyes off them for a moment", or to ignore the damage in order to get the foe out of position and maybe take down a higher value target. Similarly, it's better to play monsters that care about their well-being and have enough perceptual awareness to usually respect marks, so that PCs who take abilities like this (like Sentinel) can often do their jobs of protecting allies.



Of course, particularly if the clues here are present, but not obvious, it's entirely reasonable to ask for a Perception (or Insight, in some cases) check and base how much description you give a player based on that roll. It's also reasonable (preferrable, even) to rule that some monsters (or other opponents) either don't notice a character using a feat or ability like this -- or simply don't care.



This is all, BTW, assuming that this is an ability with a trigger. In cases where the character has a penalty, they should have a general idea of why the penalty exists. If it's someone interfering with them physically, they'll certainly know who that is. If instead it's a magical effect messing with their aim, they'll know that, say, their attack got blocked by something invisible, or that a shot that was on target got deflected by something unseen.



Now, regarding your final question, this has a very clear answer. Every attack a character makes during their turn is sequenced and is resolved before they make another one; even if the player says "I attack the orc three times," the three attacks are really separate. So if they get new information after the first attack (like the attack gaining disadvantage or the orc falling over dead) then they should find that out immediately and get an opportunity to change their mind about the other attacks. Similarly, if the player says something like "I move away from the giant and attack the statue in the corner." their attack isn't necessarily wasted if the giant knocks them prone before they can get away, because the movement is separate from their attack. So once they're on the floor, they can change their mind and decide to attack whatever's in range, rather than swing futilely against the sui-distant statue.






share|improve this answer





























    2














    Make it interesting, at least



    If my guess is correct you're talking about something similar to Goading Strike from the Battle Master?



    I'd give the party some information the instant it happened, and if they still didn't get it, I'd inform them the mechanics after they made an attack at disadvantage.



    For example:




    The enemy knight with full armor and his rapier and dagger take an attack on you, he taunts laughing, "Are you an utter fool? You leave your guard WIDE open, Har har har, this is like stabbing fish in a barrel!"




    Whom ever he targets with this effect, I'd also tell them that, the words of the enemy seem to echo in their ears, making them feel annoyed and distracted. IF they still decided to attack a different enemy, even after I've told them how annoying the knight was, then I'd tell them on making the first attack, it is at disadvantage and again remind them the taunting/goading words of the 2 weapon knight and probably explain the mechanics I was using.



    Honestly just make it something that feels organic and they'll probably like it. Imagine that these players haven't fought someone like this before, or maybe they have, how does that change things?



    I'd use this in reverse also, for example a random animal probably wouldn't know to attack casters who are concentrating on spells. They'd probably attack the fighters/barbarians directly in front of them.






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      3 Answers
      3






      active

      oldest

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      3 Answers
      3






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      active

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      15














      Let them know after the first attack at latest



      By the rules, each attack can have a separate target, and don't need to be called out before the first attack. Therefore, your players have the right to switch the target after their first attack for any reason --- the first target may have died, it may have turned out to impose disadvantage, it may have had a damage resistance, or whatever. "Three attacks on [target]" is, unless explicitly ruled otherwise, just a convenience thing and should not be regarded as a mechanical commitment.



      "Okay," you might say, "but should I rule it that way then?" My answer is no, you shouldn't. First of all, penalizing your players for using a shorthand is not cool and will feel like antagonizing them for no proper reason. It is a convenience thing and depriving them of that convenience for no reason will not serve any practical purpose.



      Likewise, you could rule that regardless of the wording, all attacks made will have to target the same creature, but that reduces the tactical agency the players have (in layman's terms, they have less interesting choices to make) and has the potential to slow down combat encounters significantly. In all fairness, it's more likely to increase metagaming than reduce it, since the players will have to consider eg. whether they want to use their three attacks at a creature that's likely to go down in just one hit.



      Finally, one might consider the option of not letting the players know they're rolling at a disadvantage at all (and rolling the second die in secret), but I seriously recommend against this. It will just lead to clumsy and confusing gameplay, put more stress on the GM as they have to remember to roll after player attacks and is very transparently "unusual" to the players. Metagaming shouldn't even be a concern here --- surely the characters, after attempting an attack, should realize that something is making hitting the target more difficult than usual?






      share|improve this answer

















      • 2




        That last question in your answer sums it up for me: How would a (say) fighter, who trained his whole life in melee, knowing how to read situations, understand his own body and movements in a fight and all that, not realize "something is off, you keep being distracted by that other guy and you feel like your hits don't connect with the same strength" at the very least. And then once that is out there, players will normally try something else (like attack the distracting guy). Then they would realize exactly what's off
        – Patrice
        2 hours ago
















      15














      Let them know after the first attack at latest



      By the rules, each attack can have a separate target, and don't need to be called out before the first attack. Therefore, your players have the right to switch the target after their first attack for any reason --- the first target may have died, it may have turned out to impose disadvantage, it may have had a damage resistance, or whatever. "Three attacks on [target]" is, unless explicitly ruled otherwise, just a convenience thing and should not be regarded as a mechanical commitment.



      "Okay," you might say, "but should I rule it that way then?" My answer is no, you shouldn't. First of all, penalizing your players for using a shorthand is not cool and will feel like antagonizing them for no proper reason. It is a convenience thing and depriving them of that convenience for no reason will not serve any practical purpose.



      Likewise, you could rule that regardless of the wording, all attacks made will have to target the same creature, but that reduces the tactical agency the players have (in layman's terms, they have less interesting choices to make) and has the potential to slow down combat encounters significantly. In all fairness, it's more likely to increase metagaming than reduce it, since the players will have to consider eg. whether they want to use their three attacks at a creature that's likely to go down in just one hit.



      Finally, one might consider the option of not letting the players know they're rolling at a disadvantage at all (and rolling the second die in secret), but I seriously recommend against this. It will just lead to clumsy and confusing gameplay, put more stress on the GM as they have to remember to roll after player attacks and is very transparently "unusual" to the players. Metagaming shouldn't even be a concern here --- surely the characters, after attempting an attack, should realize that something is making hitting the target more difficult than usual?






      share|improve this answer

















      • 2




        That last question in your answer sums it up for me: How would a (say) fighter, who trained his whole life in melee, knowing how to read situations, understand his own body and movements in a fight and all that, not realize "something is off, you keep being distracted by that other guy and you feel like your hits don't connect with the same strength" at the very least. And then once that is out there, players will normally try something else (like attack the distracting guy). Then they would realize exactly what's off
        – Patrice
        2 hours ago














      15












      15








      15






      Let them know after the first attack at latest



      By the rules, each attack can have a separate target, and don't need to be called out before the first attack. Therefore, your players have the right to switch the target after their first attack for any reason --- the first target may have died, it may have turned out to impose disadvantage, it may have had a damage resistance, or whatever. "Three attacks on [target]" is, unless explicitly ruled otherwise, just a convenience thing and should not be regarded as a mechanical commitment.



      "Okay," you might say, "but should I rule it that way then?" My answer is no, you shouldn't. First of all, penalizing your players for using a shorthand is not cool and will feel like antagonizing them for no proper reason. It is a convenience thing and depriving them of that convenience for no reason will not serve any practical purpose.



      Likewise, you could rule that regardless of the wording, all attacks made will have to target the same creature, but that reduces the tactical agency the players have (in layman's terms, they have less interesting choices to make) and has the potential to slow down combat encounters significantly. In all fairness, it's more likely to increase metagaming than reduce it, since the players will have to consider eg. whether they want to use their three attacks at a creature that's likely to go down in just one hit.



      Finally, one might consider the option of not letting the players know they're rolling at a disadvantage at all (and rolling the second die in secret), but I seriously recommend against this. It will just lead to clumsy and confusing gameplay, put more stress on the GM as they have to remember to roll after player attacks and is very transparently "unusual" to the players. Metagaming shouldn't even be a concern here --- surely the characters, after attempting an attack, should realize that something is making hitting the target more difficult than usual?






      share|improve this answer












      Let them know after the first attack at latest



      By the rules, each attack can have a separate target, and don't need to be called out before the first attack. Therefore, your players have the right to switch the target after their first attack for any reason --- the first target may have died, it may have turned out to impose disadvantage, it may have had a damage resistance, or whatever. "Three attacks on [target]" is, unless explicitly ruled otherwise, just a convenience thing and should not be regarded as a mechanical commitment.



      "Okay," you might say, "but should I rule it that way then?" My answer is no, you shouldn't. First of all, penalizing your players for using a shorthand is not cool and will feel like antagonizing them for no proper reason. It is a convenience thing and depriving them of that convenience for no reason will not serve any practical purpose.



      Likewise, you could rule that regardless of the wording, all attacks made will have to target the same creature, but that reduces the tactical agency the players have (in layman's terms, they have less interesting choices to make) and has the potential to slow down combat encounters significantly. In all fairness, it's more likely to increase metagaming than reduce it, since the players will have to consider eg. whether they want to use their three attacks at a creature that's likely to go down in just one hit.



      Finally, one might consider the option of not letting the players know they're rolling at a disadvantage at all (and rolling the second die in secret), but I seriously recommend against this. It will just lead to clumsy and confusing gameplay, put more stress on the GM as they have to remember to roll after player attacks and is very transparently "unusual" to the players. Metagaming shouldn't even be a concern here --- surely the characters, after attempting an attack, should realize that something is making hitting the target more difficult than usual?







      share|improve this answer












      share|improve this answer



      share|improve this answer










      answered 9 hours ago









      kviiri

      33.4k7126195




      33.4k7126195








      • 2




        That last question in your answer sums it up for me: How would a (say) fighter, who trained his whole life in melee, knowing how to read situations, understand his own body and movements in a fight and all that, not realize "something is off, you keep being distracted by that other guy and you feel like your hits don't connect with the same strength" at the very least. And then once that is out there, players will normally try something else (like attack the distracting guy). Then they would realize exactly what's off
        – Patrice
        2 hours ago














      • 2




        That last question in your answer sums it up for me: How would a (say) fighter, who trained his whole life in melee, knowing how to read situations, understand his own body and movements in a fight and all that, not realize "something is off, you keep being distracted by that other guy and you feel like your hits don't connect with the same strength" at the very least. And then once that is out there, players will normally try something else (like attack the distracting guy). Then they would realize exactly what's off
        – Patrice
        2 hours ago








      2




      2




      That last question in your answer sums it up for me: How would a (say) fighter, who trained his whole life in melee, knowing how to read situations, understand his own body and movements in a fight and all that, not realize "something is off, you keep being distracted by that other guy and you feel like your hits don't connect with the same strength" at the very least. And then once that is out there, players will normally try something else (like attack the distracting guy). Then they would realize exactly what's off
      – Patrice
      2 hours ago




      That last question in your answer sums it up for me: How would a (say) fighter, who trained his whole life in melee, knowing how to read situations, understand his own body and movements in a fight and all that, not realize "something is off, you keep being distracted by that other guy and you feel like your hits don't connect with the same strength" at the very least. And then once that is out there, players will normally try something else (like attack the distracting guy). Then they would realize exactly what's off
      – Patrice
      2 hours ago













      6














      In general, intelligent creatures in D&D5 know when they're under an effect, as long as that effect has perceptible signifiers.



      See PH page 204 (which is about magic, but the principle establishes the basic principle): That people under a spell effect don't know about it UNLESS IT HAS A PERCEPTIBLE EFFECT. Which means if it does have such an effect, they should know about it.



      This is a core principle of all roleplay, not just D&D -- players should know about stuff their characters would be able to perceive. Yes, I know this is basic, but trust me, I'm going somewhere with this.



      This means that while you don't have to tell players explicitly how a "marked"-style ability (which generally signifies that the character in question is positioning themselves in a way that will let them counter-attack if the target attacks anyone except the) works, you are being unfair if you don't give them the basic description that will let them react intelligently.



      If you look back at 4th edition (where the "marked" condition originated), the purpose of the "marked" concept (which, no, isn't an explicit condition in 5th edition, but is still present in concept) isn't to let a character -- PC or NPC -- do extra damage. Instead it's to help a character designed to take hits to do their job; to prevent their allies from taking damage by "persuading" foes to attack their higher defenses instead.



      This means that if you rule that characters who are targeted by such a defensive ability have no awareness of it, you're letting your monsters (and PCs who take similar abilities) do extra damage, but a the expense of being able to accomplish their role.



      So instead, it's better overall to give people descriptions of what's going on that will allow them to make meaningful choices; whether to attack the person who is, say "watching you closely, and seems ready to attack if you take your eyes off them for a moment", or to ignore the damage in order to get the foe out of position and maybe take down a higher value target. Similarly, it's better to play monsters that care about their well-being and have enough perceptual awareness to usually respect marks, so that PCs who take abilities like this (like Sentinel) can often do their jobs of protecting allies.



      Of course, particularly if the clues here are present, but not obvious, it's entirely reasonable to ask for a Perception (or Insight, in some cases) check and base how much description you give a player based on that roll. It's also reasonable (preferrable, even) to rule that some monsters (or other opponents) either don't notice a character using a feat or ability like this -- or simply don't care.



      This is all, BTW, assuming that this is an ability with a trigger. In cases where the character has a penalty, they should have a general idea of why the penalty exists. If it's someone interfering with them physically, they'll certainly know who that is. If instead it's a magical effect messing with their aim, they'll know that, say, their attack got blocked by something invisible, or that a shot that was on target got deflected by something unseen.



      Now, regarding your final question, this has a very clear answer. Every attack a character makes during their turn is sequenced and is resolved before they make another one; even if the player says "I attack the orc three times," the three attacks are really separate. So if they get new information after the first attack (like the attack gaining disadvantage or the orc falling over dead) then they should find that out immediately and get an opportunity to change their mind about the other attacks. Similarly, if the player says something like "I move away from the giant and attack the statue in the corner." their attack isn't necessarily wasted if the giant knocks them prone before they can get away, because the movement is separate from their attack. So once they're on the floor, they can change their mind and decide to attack whatever's in range, rather than swing futilely against the sui-distant statue.






      share|improve this answer


























        6














        In general, intelligent creatures in D&D5 know when they're under an effect, as long as that effect has perceptible signifiers.



        See PH page 204 (which is about magic, but the principle establishes the basic principle): That people under a spell effect don't know about it UNLESS IT HAS A PERCEPTIBLE EFFECT. Which means if it does have such an effect, they should know about it.



        This is a core principle of all roleplay, not just D&D -- players should know about stuff their characters would be able to perceive. Yes, I know this is basic, but trust me, I'm going somewhere with this.



        This means that while you don't have to tell players explicitly how a "marked"-style ability (which generally signifies that the character in question is positioning themselves in a way that will let them counter-attack if the target attacks anyone except the) works, you are being unfair if you don't give them the basic description that will let them react intelligently.



        If you look back at 4th edition (where the "marked" condition originated), the purpose of the "marked" concept (which, no, isn't an explicit condition in 5th edition, but is still present in concept) isn't to let a character -- PC or NPC -- do extra damage. Instead it's to help a character designed to take hits to do their job; to prevent their allies from taking damage by "persuading" foes to attack their higher defenses instead.



        This means that if you rule that characters who are targeted by such a defensive ability have no awareness of it, you're letting your monsters (and PCs who take similar abilities) do extra damage, but a the expense of being able to accomplish their role.



        So instead, it's better overall to give people descriptions of what's going on that will allow them to make meaningful choices; whether to attack the person who is, say "watching you closely, and seems ready to attack if you take your eyes off them for a moment", or to ignore the damage in order to get the foe out of position and maybe take down a higher value target. Similarly, it's better to play monsters that care about their well-being and have enough perceptual awareness to usually respect marks, so that PCs who take abilities like this (like Sentinel) can often do their jobs of protecting allies.



        Of course, particularly if the clues here are present, but not obvious, it's entirely reasonable to ask for a Perception (or Insight, in some cases) check and base how much description you give a player based on that roll. It's also reasonable (preferrable, even) to rule that some monsters (or other opponents) either don't notice a character using a feat or ability like this -- or simply don't care.



        This is all, BTW, assuming that this is an ability with a trigger. In cases where the character has a penalty, they should have a general idea of why the penalty exists. If it's someone interfering with them physically, they'll certainly know who that is. If instead it's a magical effect messing with their aim, they'll know that, say, their attack got blocked by something invisible, or that a shot that was on target got deflected by something unseen.



        Now, regarding your final question, this has a very clear answer. Every attack a character makes during their turn is sequenced and is resolved before they make another one; even if the player says "I attack the orc three times," the three attacks are really separate. So if they get new information after the first attack (like the attack gaining disadvantage or the orc falling over dead) then they should find that out immediately and get an opportunity to change their mind about the other attacks. Similarly, if the player says something like "I move away from the giant and attack the statue in the corner." their attack isn't necessarily wasted if the giant knocks them prone before they can get away, because the movement is separate from their attack. So once they're on the floor, they can change their mind and decide to attack whatever's in range, rather than swing futilely against the sui-distant statue.






        share|improve this answer
























          6












          6








          6






          In general, intelligent creatures in D&D5 know when they're under an effect, as long as that effect has perceptible signifiers.



          See PH page 204 (which is about magic, but the principle establishes the basic principle): That people under a spell effect don't know about it UNLESS IT HAS A PERCEPTIBLE EFFECT. Which means if it does have such an effect, they should know about it.



          This is a core principle of all roleplay, not just D&D -- players should know about stuff their characters would be able to perceive. Yes, I know this is basic, but trust me, I'm going somewhere with this.



          This means that while you don't have to tell players explicitly how a "marked"-style ability (which generally signifies that the character in question is positioning themselves in a way that will let them counter-attack if the target attacks anyone except the) works, you are being unfair if you don't give them the basic description that will let them react intelligently.



          If you look back at 4th edition (where the "marked" condition originated), the purpose of the "marked" concept (which, no, isn't an explicit condition in 5th edition, but is still present in concept) isn't to let a character -- PC or NPC -- do extra damage. Instead it's to help a character designed to take hits to do their job; to prevent their allies from taking damage by "persuading" foes to attack their higher defenses instead.



          This means that if you rule that characters who are targeted by such a defensive ability have no awareness of it, you're letting your monsters (and PCs who take similar abilities) do extra damage, but a the expense of being able to accomplish their role.



          So instead, it's better overall to give people descriptions of what's going on that will allow them to make meaningful choices; whether to attack the person who is, say "watching you closely, and seems ready to attack if you take your eyes off them for a moment", or to ignore the damage in order to get the foe out of position and maybe take down a higher value target. Similarly, it's better to play monsters that care about their well-being and have enough perceptual awareness to usually respect marks, so that PCs who take abilities like this (like Sentinel) can often do their jobs of protecting allies.



          Of course, particularly if the clues here are present, but not obvious, it's entirely reasonable to ask for a Perception (or Insight, in some cases) check and base how much description you give a player based on that roll. It's also reasonable (preferrable, even) to rule that some monsters (or other opponents) either don't notice a character using a feat or ability like this -- or simply don't care.



          This is all, BTW, assuming that this is an ability with a trigger. In cases where the character has a penalty, they should have a general idea of why the penalty exists. If it's someone interfering with them physically, they'll certainly know who that is. If instead it's a magical effect messing with their aim, they'll know that, say, their attack got blocked by something invisible, or that a shot that was on target got deflected by something unseen.



          Now, regarding your final question, this has a very clear answer. Every attack a character makes during their turn is sequenced and is resolved before they make another one; even if the player says "I attack the orc three times," the three attacks are really separate. So if they get new information after the first attack (like the attack gaining disadvantage or the orc falling over dead) then they should find that out immediately and get an opportunity to change their mind about the other attacks. Similarly, if the player says something like "I move away from the giant and attack the statue in the corner." their attack isn't necessarily wasted if the giant knocks them prone before they can get away, because the movement is separate from their attack. So once they're on the floor, they can change their mind and decide to attack whatever's in range, rather than swing futilely against the sui-distant statue.






          share|improve this answer












          In general, intelligent creatures in D&D5 know when they're under an effect, as long as that effect has perceptible signifiers.



          See PH page 204 (which is about magic, but the principle establishes the basic principle): That people under a spell effect don't know about it UNLESS IT HAS A PERCEPTIBLE EFFECT. Which means if it does have such an effect, they should know about it.



          This is a core principle of all roleplay, not just D&D -- players should know about stuff their characters would be able to perceive. Yes, I know this is basic, but trust me, I'm going somewhere with this.



          This means that while you don't have to tell players explicitly how a "marked"-style ability (which generally signifies that the character in question is positioning themselves in a way that will let them counter-attack if the target attacks anyone except the) works, you are being unfair if you don't give them the basic description that will let them react intelligently.



          If you look back at 4th edition (where the "marked" condition originated), the purpose of the "marked" concept (which, no, isn't an explicit condition in 5th edition, but is still present in concept) isn't to let a character -- PC or NPC -- do extra damage. Instead it's to help a character designed to take hits to do their job; to prevent their allies from taking damage by "persuading" foes to attack their higher defenses instead.



          This means that if you rule that characters who are targeted by such a defensive ability have no awareness of it, you're letting your monsters (and PCs who take similar abilities) do extra damage, but a the expense of being able to accomplish their role.



          So instead, it's better overall to give people descriptions of what's going on that will allow them to make meaningful choices; whether to attack the person who is, say "watching you closely, and seems ready to attack if you take your eyes off them for a moment", or to ignore the damage in order to get the foe out of position and maybe take down a higher value target. Similarly, it's better to play monsters that care about their well-being and have enough perceptual awareness to usually respect marks, so that PCs who take abilities like this (like Sentinel) can often do their jobs of protecting allies.



          Of course, particularly if the clues here are present, but not obvious, it's entirely reasonable to ask for a Perception (or Insight, in some cases) check and base how much description you give a player based on that roll. It's also reasonable (preferrable, even) to rule that some monsters (or other opponents) either don't notice a character using a feat or ability like this -- or simply don't care.



          This is all, BTW, assuming that this is an ability with a trigger. In cases where the character has a penalty, they should have a general idea of why the penalty exists. If it's someone interfering with them physically, they'll certainly know who that is. If instead it's a magical effect messing with their aim, they'll know that, say, their attack got blocked by something invisible, or that a shot that was on target got deflected by something unseen.



          Now, regarding your final question, this has a very clear answer. Every attack a character makes during their turn is sequenced and is resolved before they make another one; even if the player says "I attack the orc three times," the three attacks are really separate. So if they get new information after the first attack (like the attack gaining disadvantage or the orc falling over dead) then they should find that out immediately and get an opportunity to change their mind about the other attacks. Similarly, if the player says something like "I move away from the giant and attack the statue in the corner." their attack isn't necessarily wasted if the giant knocks them prone before they can get away, because the movement is separate from their attack. So once they're on the floor, they can change their mind and decide to attack whatever's in range, rather than swing futilely against the sui-distant statue.







          share|improve this answer












          share|improve this answer



          share|improve this answer










          answered 8 hours ago









          mneme

          530210




          530210























              2














              Make it interesting, at least



              If my guess is correct you're talking about something similar to Goading Strike from the Battle Master?



              I'd give the party some information the instant it happened, and if they still didn't get it, I'd inform them the mechanics after they made an attack at disadvantage.



              For example:




              The enemy knight with full armor and his rapier and dagger take an attack on you, he taunts laughing, "Are you an utter fool? You leave your guard WIDE open, Har har har, this is like stabbing fish in a barrel!"




              Whom ever he targets with this effect, I'd also tell them that, the words of the enemy seem to echo in their ears, making them feel annoyed and distracted. IF they still decided to attack a different enemy, even after I've told them how annoying the knight was, then I'd tell them on making the first attack, it is at disadvantage and again remind them the taunting/goading words of the 2 weapon knight and probably explain the mechanics I was using.



              Honestly just make it something that feels organic and they'll probably like it. Imagine that these players haven't fought someone like this before, or maybe they have, how does that change things?



              I'd use this in reverse also, for example a random animal probably wouldn't know to attack casters who are concentrating on spells. They'd probably attack the fighters/barbarians directly in front of them.






              share|improve this answer










              New contributor




              joemama114 is a new contributor to this site. Take care in asking for clarification, commenting, and answering.
              Check out our Code of Conduct.























                2














                Make it interesting, at least



                If my guess is correct you're talking about something similar to Goading Strike from the Battle Master?



                I'd give the party some information the instant it happened, and if they still didn't get it, I'd inform them the mechanics after they made an attack at disadvantage.



                For example:




                The enemy knight with full armor and his rapier and dagger take an attack on you, he taunts laughing, "Are you an utter fool? You leave your guard WIDE open, Har har har, this is like stabbing fish in a barrel!"




                Whom ever he targets with this effect, I'd also tell them that, the words of the enemy seem to echo in their ears, making them feel annoyed and distracted. IF they still decided to attack a different enemy, even after I've told them how annoying the knight was, then I'd tell them on making the first attack, it is at disadvantage and again remind them the taunting/goading words of the 2 weapon knight and probably explain the mechanics I was using.



                Honestly just make it something that feels organic and they'll probably like it. Imagine that these players haven't fought someone like this before, or maybe they have, how does that change things?



                I'd use this in reverse also, for example a random animal probably wouldn't know to attack casters who are concentrating on spells. They'd probably attack the fighters/barbarians directly in front of them.






                share|improve this answer










                New contributor




                joemama114 is a new contributor to this site. Take care in asking for clarification, commenting, and answering.
                Check out our Code of Conduct.





















                  2












                  2








                  2






                  Make it interesting, at least



                  If my guess is correct you're talking about something similar to Goading Strike from the Battle Master?



                  I'd give the party some information the instant it happened, and if they still didn't get it, I'd inform them the mechanics after they made an attack at disadvantage.



                  For example:




                  The enemy knight with full armor and his rapier and dagger take an attack on you, he taunts laughing, "Are you an utter fool? You leave your guard WIDE open, Har har har, this is like stabbing fish in a barrel!"




                  Whom ever he targets with this effect, I'd also tell them that, the words of the enemy seem to echo in their ears, making them feel annoyed and distracted. IF they still decided to attack a different enemy, even after I've told them how annoying the knight was, then I'd tell them on making the first attack, it is at disadvantage and again remind them the taunting/goading words of the 2 weapon knight and probably explain the mechanics I was using.



                  Honestly just make it something that feels organic and they'll probably like it. Imagine that these players haven't fought someone like this before, or maybe they have, how does that change things?



                  I'd use this in reverse also, for example a random animal probably wouldn't know to attack casters who are concentrating on spells. They'd probably attack the fighters/barbarians directly in front of them.






                  share|improve this answer










                  New contributor




                  joemama114 is a new contributor to this site. Take care in asking for clarification, commenting, and answering.
                  Check out our Code of Conduct.









                  Make it interesting, at least



                  If my guess is correct you're talking about something similar to Goading Strike from the Battle Master?



                  I'd give the party some information the instant it happened, and if they still didn't get it, I'd inform them the mechanics after they made an attack at disadvantage.



                  For example:




                  The enemy knight with full armor and his rapier and dagger take an attack on you, he taunts laughing, "Are you an utter fool? You leave your guard WIDE open, Har har har, this is like stabbing fish in a barrel!"




                  Whom ever he targets with this effect, I'd also tell them that, the words of the enemy seem to echo in their ears, making them feel annoyed and distracted. IF they still decided to attack a different enemy, even after I've told them how annoying the knight was, then I'd tell them on making the first attack, it is at disadvantage and again remind them the taunting/goading words of the 2 weapon knight and probably explain the mechanics I was using.



                  Honestly just make it something that feels organic and they'll probably like it. Imagine that these players haven't fought someone like this before, or maybe they have, how does that change things?



                  I'd use this in reverse also, for example a random animal probably wouldn't know to attack casters who are concentrating on spells. They'd probably attack the fighters/barbarians directly in front of them.







                  share|improve this answer










                  New contributor




                  joemama114 is a new contributor to this site. Take care in asking for clarification, commenting, and answering.
                  Check out our Code of Conduct.









                  share|improve this answer



                  share|improve this answer








                  edited 2 hours ago









                  V2Blast

                  19.4k354119




                  19.4k354119






                  New contributor




                  joemama114 is a new contributor to this site. Take care in asking for clarification, commenting, and answering.
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                  answered 6 hours ago









                  joemama114

                  473




                  473




                  New contributor




                  joemama114 is a new contributor to this site. Take care in asking for clarification, commenting, and answering.
                  Check out our Code of Conduct.





                  New contributor





                  joemama114 is a new contributor to this site. Take care in asking for clarification, commenting, and answering.
                  Check out our Code of Conduct.






                  joemama114 is a new contributor to this site. Take care in asking for clarification, commenting, and answering.
                  Check out our Code of Conduct.






















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